Fashion Board 11-2-03 - 12-09-03

[NotFromHere]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Come on, TM, being at home with the kids really isn't heavy lifting the way posting on this board all day is?

Sad thing is, if you're looking to take a break and ignore the kids when you get home, it's going to show in the relationship between you and the kids. The part of life that women get more of than men that I miss most is that close relationship with the kids - they usually get to put more into that relationship, and so they usually get more out.

Just an FYI more time does not always necessarily mean quality time. I think the hockey chicks here will agree with me on that. Just because you spent more time with your mother does not mean you bond with her.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
So you can be nauseated by Bilmore's joke and throw the Taliban in his face, but I can't react to what you said?

I wasn't saying "women rule the world." I was particpating in a thread in which your comment arose.

Perhaps you should look back at my post -- I was not framing it as a response to what you said, but using it as a starting point for things that bug me. That I referenced a comment that you didn't make ("when I hear men rule the world") made that obvious, I thought.

So you were reacting to what I said much in the same way I reacted to Bilmore but you weren't responding to me. ok. sort of a fine distinction, but whatever.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by dtb

Men buy into the "status symbol" of having a stay-at-home wife, and buy into the "I have a bigger dick if I make more money" theory -- so spare me the "it's all the fault of those money-grubbing bitches."

I think that this generalization about men, and the one that you deleted about how men don't want to spend time with their kids, are far worse than anything else that anyone else, except the maybe Not Me, who is clearly leagl, has said here.

Originally posted by dtb

I can't remember when I've been more disgusted (not in a corn/analingus way -- that is a different kind of disgust). The attitudes people (i) have about and (ii) ascribe to, women/mothers who don't work outside the home is depressingly eye-opening.

What opinion should I have about a woman without children who doesn't work outside the home? Fwiw, my opinion is, lucky you, but don't be amazed if your world comes crashing down.

I would never say anything bad about mothers who don't otherwise work. Some get too wrapped up in their kids's lives and forget that they have their own, but that's just a little sad, not reprehensible.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I won't go into women like Janet Reno perhaps having some participation in "setting up" the prison system.

same with Ilsa, She Wolf of the S.S.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by mmm3587
Fuck you. My employer does a lot of mentoring and similar shit for women. It doesn't do anything for others. That sucks. And then I hear women, who make more money and have better career options than me, bitch about how bad things are for them. And I'm all "what the fuck? You make a quarter million dollars a year and vacation all over the world and you're pissed because our employer isn't doing more for you?" On the inside. On the outside, I just nod, because nobody wants to be the chauvenistic asshole.

I'm convinced that people will always complain about their situation and assume that others have it easier. Hell, look at me. But, at some point, you've got to admit that most of the workplace discrimination against professional women is gone, daddy, gone. Not all of it, sure. And I can't see a lot of it, because I am a guy. But it's not 1960 anymore. I'm amazed about a law firm actually paying a man more because of family status. It's sad that that still happens. But don't try to be all Rosa Parks about your experience in the workplace, unless you can honestly look yourself in the mirror and say that you're getting screwed.

As fringey volunteered before me, if you want to go to the fucking quarterly luncheon and have some conference room chicken while women discuss How To Make It In A Man's World, you may have my spot. Maybe your firm plants fresh grass under all the women's feet periodically so that they don't get corns on their precious toes and gives out back massages only to women, but that really ain't the way of the world. At least not where I live.

And I will counter you with the exact thing that I don't whine about but do notice - most "business development" at my firm is male-oriented activities and some of it is so much so that I would never be invited to it. Despite the fact that I play golf and enjoy sports tix as much as the guy down the hall. So I sob for you missing out on some "mentoring" program.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by greatwhitenorthchick
So you were reacting to what I said much in the same way I reacted to Bilmore but you weren't responding to me. ok. sort of a fine distinction, but whatever.

Huh?

Let me be perfectly clear. I am not saying "women rule the world."

I am not contesting that most world leaders -- political, financial, whatever -- are men.

I am contesting the notion that all men are somehow advantaged by the fact that most world leaders are men.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
notice - most "business development" at my firm is male-oriented activities

here, there is a solid network of women IP lawyers, with several in-house. marketing to this group is not male-orientated.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Do you see the women and minorities (i) going out to lunch, dinner and drinks with all the right partners

Yes.

(ii) going being invited to the strip clubs with the clients,

Yes. And spas, too.

(iii) being made partner at the same rate as all those poor white guys who don't get to go to some lip-service retreat?

Can't answer -- my firm doesn't do retreats, ever.

Could just be a San Francisco thing.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I'm convinced that people will always complain about their situation and assume that others have it easier. Hell, look at me. But, at some point, you've got to admit that most of the workplace discrimination against professional women is gone, daddy, gone. Not all of it, sure. And I can't see a lot of it, because I am a guy. But it's not 1960 anymore. I'm amazed about a law firm actually paying a man more because of family status. It's sad that that still happens. But don't try to be all Rosa Parks about your experience in the workplace, unless you can honestly look yourself in the mirror and say that you're getting screwed.

You don't see it because you don't want to see it. You're right, it is getting better, but if you think a woman is getting a leg up on a white man in the workplace because she has a mentor, you're fucking nuts. The mentor programs are in place because there are fewer women and minority capital partners. White men bond with white men. And if you wonder if that's true, take a look at who the capital partners, rainmakers, big money people are talking to at your holiday party this year. And pay attention to who gets invited to the steakhouse and the stripclub when it's over. All the mentoring in the world isn't going to make up for that kind of elbow rubbing.

So stop bitching about what you don't get. You already have it all.

TM

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Really? It was society? I actually wonder what influenced them to do so. Because the society I grew up in involved two grandmothers and a mother who all worked. If these women are from my generation (maybe a big if), it seems outdated to think that they were really being told not to learn a skill/trade/career and to assume that someone would come along and support them.

I guess I tend to agree with DS (and from your spelling of losing, I assume you are her) that the women who quit working once married and who don't have kids are kinda looking for a free ride. I think the same of men who do comparable things (an example, trust fund brats who would rather drain off their family's wealth than get a fucking job).

Yes, I am debtslave/badrichchick/whoever else.

Anyway, that was your family. Society is the aggregate opinions of people. I measure society's opinions by (hypothetically) asking similar demographic groups two different questions: "Jane graduated from college and met Dave. Dave is rich. Jane and Dave got married. Now Jane doesn't work. They don't have kids." Then reverse Jane and Dave and ask the other group.

40 years ago, would anyone have had a problem with Jane not working? How many more would now? What about Dave not working?

I'm sure that your family supports positive roles for women. Mine does, too. And many educated people's families do. I just wish that they all would.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Do you see the women and minorities (i) going out to lunch, dinner and drinks with all the right partners, (ii) going being invited to the strip clubs with the clients, (iii) being made partner at the same rate as all those poor white guys who don't get to go to some lip-service retreat? Jesus Christ.

Still haven't been invited to a minority retreat. But I'm sure all 4 of us would have great fun.

TM

(i) Yeah, at the same rates or greater. Several of the superstars in my group are women.

(ii) I haven't heard of any stripclubbing with clients.

(iii) Pretty much, yeah.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
So if NFH is a gay man as a result of her angel dude avatar, does this make you a lesbian? I'm just trying to keep up here.

It makes me a guy who thinks that that picture of Suzanne Cryer is just *TOO* cute for words, and had to be my avatar for a little while. I'm sure it's confusing while I am playing the "evil white misognyst" role in the mind of so many here.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Yes.

Yes. And spas, too.

I hope it's at the same rate as all the white guys at your firm. And if that's the case, please accept my resume. Because that ain't how shit works here.

TM

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
here, there is a solid network of women IP lawyers, with several in-house. marketing to this group is not male-orientated.

That is unusual.

I will say that the climate in TX for this sort of stuff probably lags other parts of the country.

The first business development trip I learned about when I moved to Texas (partners only, so I couldn't have gone anyway) was, I kid you not, a hunting trip. Men are regularly offered more spots to go to sporting events, to play golf, etc. I have found out about golf outings on the day before the happened because the male associates who were supposed to go had to back out. And these were clients that I did all the work for. Not the male associates.

My "mentor" (officially) is male. All of my unofficial mentors (people who I work with and strive to be like) are male.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by mmm3587
(i) Yeah, at the same rates or greater. Several of the superstars in my group are women.

(ii) I haven't heard of any stripclubbing with clients.

(iii) Pretty much, yeah.

I think you're full of shit.

TM