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05-07-2004, 09:20 PM
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#3841
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Too Lazy to Google
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
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Quote:
Originally posted by ltl/fb
blah de blah blah.
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Club, is that you?
Quote:
Originally posted by ltl/fb
That was funny about the being in favor of not allowing anyone in any part of Iraq to ever have any kind of camera, tape recorder, videocamera, digital recorder, or anything else. Is Scalia your bf?
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Fiancee. We just have to figure out what to do about his wife.
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IRL I'm Charming.
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05-07-2004, 09:28 PM
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#3842
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Too Lazy to Google
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
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It only counts if you get caught
Quote:
Originally posted by ltl/fb
No, I don't have an inside track on abusive media. What I was pointing out is that Bush and Rumsfeld seem to be wanting to be perceived as saying that they believe the behavior by Americans in the pictures is horrible and bad and wrong, but they keep fucking up and indicating that what they really think the bad thing is, is that pictures of the behavior got out.
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They have said nothing that would allow a reasonable person to reach that conclusion. Just the opposite. The quote you cited to was in response to a question regarding the pictures. You just didn't see the hearings and chose to instead get your news from CNN. Hardly an unbiased source.
You hate GWB and Rummy. No matter how many times they say that the abuses were wrong, you will choose to say that all they care about is that the abuses got revealed that was bad. You are a caricature of a partisan Dem.
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IRL I'm Charming.
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05-07-2004, 09:41 PM
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#3843
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Too Lazy to Google
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
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It only counts if you get caught
Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
What's the worst thing you think they did? Just trying to be clear what isn't torture.
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Are you talking about in the pictures? If you aren't, I don't know what the worst thing they did was as I don't have all the facts. I don't know what is in the unreleased pictures, either. Do you?
I have heard that 25 deaths have occurred and 2 are being investigated as homicides. The one appears to have been a justified homicide in that the prisoner was escaping and they shot him when he was eluding capture. Same thing happens if you try to escape from any prison. I don't know enough about the other homicide to know if it was accidental or justified. Do you?
If they sodomized anyone, I would feel that was just as bad as when it was done to Abner Luima. That is wrong.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Does this cut it?
- "According to eye witnesses to debate at the highest levels of the Administration...whenever Powell or [Richard] Armitage sought to question prisoner treatment issues, they were forced to endure what our source characterizes as 'around the table, coarse, vulgar, frat-boy bully remarks about what these tough guys would do if THEY ever got their hands on prisoners....'
-- let's be clear: our source is not alleging "orders" from the White House. Our source is pointing out that, as we said in the Summary, a fish rots from its head. The atmosphere created by Rumsfeld's controversial decisions was apparently aided and abetted by his colleagues in their callous disregard for the implications of the then-developing situation, and by their ridicule of the only combat veterans at the top of this Administration.
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How do you know this is true? And are they talking about Iraqi detainees or OBL and the Taliban?
BTW - I said a few things about what I would like to do to OBL and Taliban after 9/11. Did you?
Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I thought the administration line was that the international community was with us and wanted Saddam out. Boy, it's so hard keeping track of the conservative rationalizations.
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I don't remember the admin saying that the entire world was with us. Is that what you mean by international? I think what they said is that there is an international coalition in Iraq. There is. It just doesn't include the French and the Germans and the Russians (who stole oil for food money and helped to ensure the suffering of Iraqis under SH's rule) and the North Koreans and some others.
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IRL I'm Charming.
Last edited by Not Me; 05-07-2004 at 09:45 PM..
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05-07-2004, 09:54 PM
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#3844
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Too Lazy to Google
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
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Religion is evil mind control
Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This is from today's SF Chronicle:
Nigerian Muslims flee town ravaged by militants from Christian tribe
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You will get no argument from me that this sect of Christianity is filthy hateful and evil if they are killing in the name of their god.
That doesn't mean that the brand of islam practiced by Sadr and his followers isn't filthy and violent and evil. It is.
Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Some Christians also reportedly were killed. Nanman Anthony, a 35-year-old Tarok farmer, said Hausa fighters cut him on the back and head with machetes, then left him for dead. Another Tarok man carried him to nearby Shendam, a Christian community.
In February, Muslim militants were blamed for killing nearly 50 people in Yelwa, including many victims slain while they were seeking refuge in a church.
In the heavily Muslim northern city of Kano, however, another radical cleric accused Christians of "systematically attacking Muslims."
"The blood of every Muslim is worth a thousand times more than that of pork-eating infidels," the Muslim cleric, Cheikh Bin Usman, said in a radio broadcast.
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It seems the muslims are just as bad in this part of the world.
I think even he might convert, though, if he ever tasted a Honey Baked™ Ham. Yum.
And if they hate us pork-eaters, you would think they would love jews.
__________________
IRL I'm Charming.
Last edited by Not Me; 05-07-2004 at 11:29 PM..
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05-07-2004, 11:28 PM
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#3845
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Proud Holder-Post 200,000
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,129
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It only counts if you get caught
Quote:
Originally posted by ltl/fb
long long string of quotes to make Ty seem almost circumspect
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fringe, they're saying when they take prisoners they get to make them slaves. doesn't that put any of this into perspective for you.
by the way, atticus is a fucking racist. my mom is an italian woman.
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05-07-2004, 11:32 PM
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#3846
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Too Lazy to Google
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
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It only counts if you get caught
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
fringe, they're saying when they take prisoners they get to make them slaves. doesn't that put any of this into perspective for you.
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She is part of the "Blame America First" crowd. Don't bother reasoning with her. She has lost her ability to reason.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
by the way, atticus is a fucking racist. my mom is an italian woman.
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See, Hank, you just don't get it. You are only a racist if you say bad things about oppressed minorities. For instance, if you criticize a black man, say Jesse Jackson, no matter if it is legitimate criticism or not, it is racist. But if Jesse says "Hymie Town," that is not racist. Get it now?
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IRL I'm Charming.
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05-07-2004, 11:42 PM
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#3847
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Too Lazy to Google
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
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Fox News Sunday Rebuttal to Ted "I hate America" Koppel
Fox News Sunday is doing a piece entitled "What We Have Accomplished. " The focus will be on putting in context the deaths of 700 soldiers in Iraq. Instead of just naming them as if they were helpless victims, Fox will show what they gave their lives for.
I am sure that the "Blame America First" crowd will hate it AG and Fringey, you should skip it.
__________________
IRL I'm Charming.
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05-08-2004, 12:14 AM
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#3848
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Too Lazy to Google
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
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Comparative Quotes
Bloated Drunk who lets women drown to death after he was driving drunk and drove her into a river to cover up his sexual infidelities - Ted Kennedy:
Quote:
the symbol of America is not the Statue of Liberty. It's the prisoner standing on a box wearing a dark cape and a dark hood on his head, wires attached to his body, afraid that he's going to be electrocuted
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Rummy quotes from the hearing:
- In daylong sworn testimony before the House and Senate Armed Services committees, Rumsfeld offered his ``deepest apologies'' for the prisoner abuses.
``These events occurred on my watch,'' Rumsfeld said. ``I take full responsibility.''
Under questioning, Rumsfeld admitted that ``it's possible'' his resignation would undo some of the damage inflicted by the scandal.
``If I felt I could not be effective I would resign in a minute,'' Rumsfeld said. `
__________________
IRL I'm Charming.
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05-08-2004, 12:27 AM
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#3849
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Proud Holder-Post 200,000
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,129
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Comparative Quotes
Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
Bloated Drunk who lets women drown to death after he was driving drunk and drove her into a river to cover up his sexual infidelities - Ted Kennedy:
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Teddy really said that? cite pls.
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05-08-2004, 12:31 AM
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#3850
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Too Lazy to Google
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
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Comparative Quotes
Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Teddy really said that? cite pls.
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He didn't say he was a bloated drunk who let MaryJo die. That was my quote. He said the thing about the symbol of America:
http://news.bostonherald.com/nationa...rticleid=22093
__________________
IRL I'm Charming.
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05-08-2004, 12:32 AM
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#3851
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Classified
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: You Never Know . . .
Posts: 4,266
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It only counts if you get caught
Quote:
Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
No, because the perspective you, Clubby and Bilmore urge is that as long as we don't fly airliners into buildings, we've got the high ground.
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In fairness, Bilmore did not urge that perspective at first. He got pissed, though, when he perceived the drop in the polls.
Quote:
Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Look, there's something about prisons. There is a code of behavior we expect of people when they've got someone incapacitated and at our mercy. We broke that code.
* * *
A corrections officer I met once told me that every morning he looks into the mirror before heading off to work and says, "As punishment, not for punishment." It reminds him that in our society --- or any civilized society, which should include the CPA --- people are being punished by being imprisoned. Otherwise, you start to think that a prison is a venue in which more deserved punishments get imposed. They're not there to be punished; they're punished by being there, nothing more. Otherwise your thinking leads to looking the other way when your fellow man is being shivved or raped, because, shit, he should have stayed out of prison by not committing a crime in the first damn place.
* * *
Your inability to grasp this makes Jesus cry.
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I will refrain from further comment on Not Me's unquestioned ability to summon tears from the eyes of Our Lord, to puruse a side point that I hope is interesting to at least one or two others;
I've attached a link below to a CNN story I saw today which exemplifies the differences between most military and civilian confinement facilities, and helps explain why this stuff happening in a military prison rocked me:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/05/...rce/index.html
Read this -- It describes how at Gitmo, there werea total of two guards (young MPs) disciplined for misconduct in the 2002-03. 5 investigations -- two substantiated. [So -- 40%, a lot higher than in civilain prisons.]
But look at the offenses for which these guys recieved non-judicial punishment: (a) One for _attempting_ to hose down an inmate at whom he was justifiably pissed (another guard stopped him and averted the dousing with H2O). (b) The other for whacking a detainee with his radio after subduing him. The detainee had struck and bitten him duringa struggle.
How does this -- and its handling -- compare to the party at Abu Ghraib?
In another incident, a SSG refused non-judicial punishment and was acquitted after a court-martial on charges of improper use of pepper spray. (He had sprayed down inmates during a disturbance -- saying that he felt his men were in danger.)
How many cases like this would get to trial in the civilian world?
The SGM who administered the Gitmo facility until recently is a reservist who in "real life" is the warden of a maximum security prison in Illinois (saw an article). The General who ran Gitmo was sent over to Iraq a month or two ago to fix this mess. I gaurantee you he'll do more than just ban MPs from taking pictures.
Poor planning, poor staffing, poor training, poor policies, lousy command. That was Abu Ghraib. It is not who we are, and it is not what our Army is. I'm not sure where final responsibility rests, but I dread seeing the next batch of pictures.
S_A_M
__________________
"Courage is the price that life extracts for granting peace."
Voted Second Most Helpful Poster on the Politics Board.
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05-08-2004, 12:36 AM
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#3852
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Good monkey!
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 35
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Fox News Sunday Rebuttal to Ted "I hate America" Koppel
Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
Fox News Sunday is doing a piece entitled "What We Have Accomplished. " The focus will be on putting in context the deaths of 700 soldiers in Iraq. Instead of just naming them as if they were helpless victims, Fox will show what they gave their lives for.
I am sure that the "Blame America First" crowd will hate it AG and Fringey, you should skip it.
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Thank you for calling it to our attention when FOX runs something with redeeming value. I wouldn't otherwise notice.
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Not Not-Ty by nature.
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05-08-2004, 12:36 AM
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#3853
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Too Lazy to Google
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
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Most Don't Want Rumsfeld to Quit
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._abuse_opinion
- Poll:
WASHINGTON - A majority of Americans say they are upset about reports of abuse of Iraqi prisoners, though more than two-thirds say Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld should not resign, according to a poll released Friday.
During congressional testimony Friday, Rumsfeld apologized to the Iraqi prisoners and warned members of Congress that the abuse scandal is "going to get a good deal more terrible, I'm afraid."
Photos of naked Iraqi prisoners being humiliated have angered many in this country and outraged people in the Mideast and elsewhere around the world.
The ABC News-Washington Post poll found that 66 percent believe the soldiers involved should be charged with a crime, and just over half, 54 percent, said high-level officers should be punished for allowing the problems that led to the abuse.
People were evenly split on whether the Bush administration acted quickly enough in investigating the reports and on whether the administration was trying to investigate the abuse reports or was trying to cover it up.
Just over half, 51 percent, said they were upset about the reports, including a quarter of those polled who said they were angry.
Most people, 69 percent, said Rumsfeld should not resign. Only 20 percent said he should resign, even though some Democratic lawmakers have been demanding the secretary's resignation. Democrats in the poll said by a 2-1 margin that Rumsfeld should not resign.
Six in 10 said the abuse of Iraqi soldiers represents a few isolated incidents, while half that number, 31 percent, said they think the abuse was more widespread.
Asked whether they approve or disapprove of President Bush (news - web sites), 48 percent approved and 35 percent disapproved.
People were evenly split on whether the war in Iraq was worth fighting or not.
The poll of 802 adults was taken Wednesday and Thursday and has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points.
__________________
IRL I'm Charming.
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05-08-2004, 12:39 AM
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#3854
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Too Lazy to Google
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
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Fox News Sunday Rebuttal to Ted "I hate America" Koppel
Quote:
Originally posted by Not Flinty
Thank you for calling it to our attention when FOX runs something with redeeming value. I wouldn't otherwise notice.
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Do you watch Fox News Sunday? It is a good show. I used to love This Week with David Brinkley, and it was even still good when Cookie and Sam took over. Now it sucks.
Fox News Sunday is a great show. I like it better than Meet the Press, which is also good, though.
__________________
IRL I'm Charming.
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05-08-2004, 12:43 AM
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#3855
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Classified
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: You Never Know . . .
Posts: 4,266
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It only counts if you get caught
Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
See, Hank, you just don't get it. You are only a racist if you say bad things about oppressed minorities. For instance, if you criticize a black man, say Jesse Jackson, no matter if it is legitimate criticism or not, it is racist. But if Jesse says "Hymie Town," that is not racist. Get it now?
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No, Jesse was surely racist, because I don't like him.
(Or at least he was "religionist", because the result of WWII settled the fight about whether Jews are a race or a religion).
P.S. You should pause in the yap-flapping to read the stuff on the Taguba report.
P.P.S. Only a moron could think that Ted Koppel hates America, or that what he did on Nightline was somehow anti-American. Indeed, your very own John McCain sent a letter of protest to the company that owned several stations that didn't run that Nightline - saying that their reaction was misplaced, unpatriotic and/or designed to hide the costs of war. [Paraphrase.]
S_A_M
__________________
"Courage is the price that life extracts for granting peace."
Voted Second Most Helpful Poster on the Politics Board.
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