Fashion Board 11-2-03 - 12-09-03

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Stop saying "post hoc," you twit.

TM

That's twat to you, Captain Whiff

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I can't count on my hand the number of my friends who are all trying desperately to put off the kid thing. Dude, its the end of the party. I don't have anything else to look forward to but having a good time. You take that away from me and I'm effectively rudderless... Its like last call, only its been a 17 year party. How can anyone be expected to embrace such a horrifying life change?

Why did you get married? Did society tell you to or something?

Why dont you just get a vasectomy and let your wife think you guy shave fertility issues and then get tested and find out you are shooting blanks without saying why. Then you can party on.

[evenodds]

I am experimenting with moving the board motto from the forum page to the top of each page.

If you care to express an opinion, send me a message or post it here.

Leagl just informed me that we had our highest posting day ever yesterday . . . no wonder it took me more than an hour to catch up after five hours.

Thanks for killing my buzz, y'all.

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall

Still haven't been invited to a minority retreat. But I'm sure all 4 of us would have great fun.

TM

All in good time, my man. I am looking forward to my firm's first annual retreat for Unwed Ladies in their Thirties and Up. Should be pretty sweet. They are handing out the book "Oops! I forgot to have a baby" and throwing a botox party for us! And the goodie bag is gonna include a lifetime subscription to Its Just Lunch! You cannot believe how long we spinsters have fought for this. Sometimes we think the men dont' notice us bc we are nothing but wrinkly, over the hill hags, sporting the stench of dying ovaries, so its a refreshing coup. Of course, we outnumber the minorities (if you don't count asians), and are higher up on the food chain, but you keep fighting the good fight.

Originally posted by evenodds
Leagl just informed me that we had our highest posting day ever yesterday . . . no wonder it took me more than an hour to catch up after five hours.

Thanks for killing my buzz, y'all.

I'll be sure to drop in more often....

Less, I knew you cared... I guess I was the one that got away...

[evenodds]

Originally posted by RealityBites
I'll be sure to drop in more often....

Less, I knew you cared... I guess I was the one that got away...

All it took for our first ever "flame war wednesday" was for you to get pissed off shopping.

That's what the holiday season is all about.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by paigowprincess
All in good time, my man. I am looking forward to my firm's first annual retreat for Unwed Ladies in their Thirties and Up. Should be pretty sweet. They are handing out the book "Oops! I forgot to have a baby" and throwing a botox party for us! And the goodie bag is gonna include a lifetime subscription to Its Just Lunch! You cannot believe how long we spinsters have fought for this.

Shit. DC is so progressive. I think I need to move back...

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Shit. DC is so progressive. I think I need to move back...

Well you know that DC stands for Doomed Chicks. The female to male ratio is what, six to one, and the men here make the Average Jews look like Tony Danza (yes, I know, we should be happy to have them since at least they do have penii for the most part). So when we acccepted our offers and moved here from Cities With Better Ratios, we assumed a risk and my firm knows this. Its just grateful we gave up our chance to be happy homemakers and sexual beings to bill. Fair tradeoff? Of course.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by mmm3587
We'll, you're an asshole, too.

I may be an asshole, but you're a colossal asshole.

Originally posted by mmm3587
Those last two quoted lines summarize what puts me off so much about your attitude. You're suggesting that I have some sort of allegiance or special interest club with other white people, that we all have common interests with other members of our race. And that race is even a valid concept. You fit into the black group, and I fit into the white group, and that defines us. And I should know much about your experience, or you should know much about mine, based on that? That's absurd, all we know about each other is that we're both lawyers in big cities who have enough time to spend some of it screwing around on the internet.

You have a very narrow view of the world. My point is that white culture dominates. White people outnumber every other minority group in this country and have, traditionally. White people are overwhelmingly in positions of power. When I go to work, I must fit into that culture. And it's not always one of openess and acceptance. So, in order to get by, I have to learn how best to make my mostly white employers happy. This means concentrating on and adopting certain cultural differences between us that they deem important. And if you don't think that there is any difference between white and black culture then you have bigger problems than you let on here.

There is no need for you to learn about black people (generally speaking), because it is not necessary for you to succeed in any realm of your life, especially work. Sure you have to be sensitive to other people's experiences, but generally speaking, you don't have to do shit. When you get put on a transaction or case or whatever and you sit across from the partner and the other associates, you already have at the very least, one thing in common. When I'm in the same situation I have to go out of my way to make them understand that I share or can share some of their commonalities too. It's not in my head. That is my and many, many other people's experiences.

You will inevitably say, "Everyone has to do this to some extent. White people don't share a bunch of common interests. Just the other day, I told a partner I liked NY Strip Steaks and he said he preferred filets." But that's not the point. The point is I have those differences to deal with on top of racial and cultural differences.

Originally posted by mmm3587
I don't know anything about you. I don't know that you haven't suffered egregious racism. Or, in the cases of others, egregious sexism. Maybe you have. Sadly, it's not unlikely. But we all suffer harms we don't deserve. I don't feel the sting of racism or sexism in traditional terms, so maybe I'm not qualified to speak to their fundamental effect. I'm a white guy, so I can't feel them, right? I'm not allowed to, so I'll have to feel other ills you deem appropriate for a white guy to let perturb or effect him.

What the fuck are you talking about? You're damn right you don't feel the sting of racism. It may make you feel uncomfortable when you see it, but it's never aimed at you and you have no clue (especially after reading all that you've written so far) what it's like.

"We all suffer harms we don't deserve." No shit. What's your point? Add racism or sexism to the harms that white guys generally suffer and you're running further uphill. So excuse me while I don't wipe my eye when you aren't assigned a fucking mentor.

Originally posted by mmm3587
Race and gender are concepts which shouldn't factor into how much mentoring or opportunities for professional development a firm provides. Should they factor into hiring, or specific mentor assignment? Sure. Those are subjective measures taking many factors into account and designed to serve different ideals. But, should a firm have a policy of singling people out for certain services based on race and gender? In any other consideration, race and gender are taboo subjects. Mostly. We consider gender, but not race, appropriate to determine insurance rates. But here, we say "this person gets extra services, or benefits, because of race or gender." At the very least, I think that's extremely distasteful.

This is the classic argument. It was wrong when the Supreme Court made it and it's wrong now. It only works in a society that is already colorblind. If that was the case, I would be arguing the same things you are. Unfortunately, that ain't the way it is.

Your firm's mentor program is built because of this fact and is probably partly remedial in nature, I'm guessing. It's designed to assist young associates who don't have people in positions of authority with whom they have things in common. The reason why they don't have these resources is because of the many years when firms would not hire blacks, law schools would not accept blacks, etc., etc. It is a small, small program designed to help people fit in and understand the work environment they find themselves in that is unbelievably stocked (at the top) with white men. Bitch and moan as much as you want, you don't need it as bad.

Originally posted by mmm3587
People change over time because of the ways that institutions influence them. And vice versa. Having hard and fast rules about race and gender and the way to treat people based on these classifications is dangerous. You can't do away with racism through policy. You can't force people to not be bigots through benefits. People will have thoughts or prejudices in their heads and have to have these feelings changed over time. If we continue to create all these racial classes which receive different treatment, we just perpetuate that.

And now you're in a whole different land. Everything that is race specific is an "attempt to force people to change their feelings." The mentoring program that you are upset you don't get is designed to give blacks access they wouldn't otherwise have. It is designed to put them on the same playing field you're on. There isn't a partner at a firm with such a mentoring program who is having black people forced on them as mentees.

But let's look further at your point. "You can't do away with racism through policy." Bullshit. There are people out there who will never change their minds. But there are many people out there who have opinions about people that most would consider racist or ignorant simply from lack of exposure. These people change these views when they spend time with black people or asian people or whatever. Sometimes it's as simple as that.

Other times, it's not about changing their minds. It's about saying, "we don't accept that you don't hire blacks because you don't like them, so suck it up." In those situations I don't really give a shit if they have a revelation and discover that they've been wrong. Give the black woman the job or the loan or whatever you're purposefully holding out of their reach for the stupidest of reasons.

Originally posted by mmm3587
I am sure that you will think it a cliche, but I don't really think of race as a valid concept. A significant portion of my family and friends are mixed race. A couple sets of relatives have adopted children of different races than one or both or the parents. Our societal distinctions are no longer always about race or gender. They are increasingly about class and education and means. Continuing to let race and gender define us is just living in the past. Individuals can do that, and have the right to do that. But having instituaional policies which treat people differently based on gender or race as a sole determining factor is a concept I find inherently wrong.

Well, that sounds really nice. But listen closely. This is not the way the world works. Wouldn't it be great if no one treated anyone differently based on race? "Our societal distinctions are no longer always about race or gender." Oh. Why don't you read that sentence again and look for the emphasis I added. That one word swallows the whole sentence. If there were no societal distinctions that impact people in real ways today, do you think we would be having this argument? You're not fooling anybody with this purposefully simple viewpoint. You only find using "gender or race as a sole determining factor" wrong because you don't fucking have to.

And now, let's go back to something you said in your previous post.

Originally posted by mmm3587
Don't harp about poor little you and how you have it so bad. If anything, harp about how other black guys have it bad, because of education, employment, the criminal justice system, and every other way that black guys get fucked. Even though you may have been profiled, or experienced some racism, when you are suddenly an expert on the woes of a group you are a part of, even though, by all appearances, you are a upper-middle class, happy, intelligent and well-employed guy, it just smacks of sanctimony.

This is the absolute perfect quote. Let me translate it for everyone.

"Real black guys have it bad. You know, the ones who sweep the streets, pick up my garbage and spend their time in jail. They're the ones with the problems. You're one of those successful blacks. Relative to them, you got it made, man. Be happy with your lot. You make a lot of money and have a good job. Concentrate on the real blacks' problems. You should be satisfied with what you have."

Fuck that. And fuck you for thinking it. First of all, I am concerned with what other black people have to deal with (and I'm guessing if we were having that argument -- the one about how blacks who aren't lawyers get screwed -- you would be telling me that it isn't my problem because I'm not in that position). But why should I then have to settle when it comes to my life when you don't have to? Why shouldn't black or female attorneys with six figure salaries be trying to break down the walls of partnership that have been and continue to be dominated by white men? Why shouldn't we be trying to put black people or women in positions of power that they aren't normally considered for because of who they are? I should be satisfied that I have a good job and only worry about "black issues" when it comes to those who aren't in my exact position? If I try to get what I deserve, I'm sanctimonious? How conveniently condescending. Kiss. My. Ass.

TM

[purse junkie]

Originally posted by evenodds
Yesterday morning, PJ pmed with a rumor too disturbing for me to contemplate . . . that Roberto Heras was leaving the Posties for the new Manolo Saiz-ONCE team (whose name escapes me).

This morning, our local npr station confirmed the news, waking me from a dead sleep. Now, I am exhausted and pissed off.

Just try to bring your weak-ass shit today, ya bunch of race-baiting, sexist pigs.

E/O

I am so sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings E/O. But bad as it is for Lance, the entire cycling community pretty much felt that Heras was selling out his own near-term Tour chances to take a support role for Lance for more cash when he joined Postal. And much as I heart Lance, I do (please don't be angry) heart Heras more after this year's beautiful season.

All right, back to hockey, sports fans. I understand it involves something called a "puck"?

PJ

[evenodds]

Originally posted by purse junkie
I am so sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings E/O. But bad as it is for Lance, the entire cycling community pretty much felt that Heras was selling out his own near-term Tour chances to take a support role for Lance for more cash when he joined Postal. And much as I heart Lance, I do (please don't be angry) heart Heras more after this year's beautiful season.

All right, back to hockey, sports fans. I understand it involves something called a "puck"?

PJ

While this might get me drummed out of Austin (though I doubt it), I will have a hard time deciding whether I would prefer to have Jan, Joseba, or Roberto win.

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
I would rather chew off my own knob with infected teeth than read ANOTHER FUCKING POST ABOUT DISCRIMINATION IN THE WORKPLACE.

That is all.

That is because you are a racist asshole.

Originally posted by purse junkie
I am so sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings E/O. But bad as it is for Lance, the entire cycling community pretty much felt that Heras was selling out his own near-term Tour chances to take a support role for Lance for more cash when he joined Postal. And much as I heart Lance, I do (please don't be angry) heart Heras more after this year's beautiful season.

All right, back to hockey, sports fans. I understand it involves something called a "puck"?

PJ

Originally posted by evenodds
Yesterday morning, PJ pmed with a rumor too disturbing for me to contemplate . . . that Roberto Heras was leaving the Posties for the new Manolo Saiz-ONCE team (whose name escapes me).

Ok, until I read purse junkie, I thought EO's post was about a designer (heras) leaving some house I've never heard of, but is geared toward the younger generation (Posties) for the oh so popular shoe designer (Manolo Blahblahblahniks)

Phew. All is still right with the world. See what happens when you dump the cycle boy and start dating football guy.

R(it's getting cold, hibernation is calling again)b

[purse junkie]

Originally posted by evenodds
While this might get me drummed out of Austin (though I doubt it), I will have a hard time deciding whether I would prefer to have Jan, Joseba, or Roberto win.

Heras was so gentlemanly to his runner-up about his empathy over his losing the Vuelta on the last day that I'm rooting for him just on account of good sportsmanship. That, and I think Lance is just fucked without Heras to haul him up the mountains, despite the other great riders on Postal. So I think the question is, who are these guys' main supports going to be?

[purse junkie]

Originally posted by RealityBites
Ok, until I read purse junkie, I thought EO's post was about a designer (heras) leaving some house I've never heard of, but is geared toward the younger generation (Posties) for the oh so popular shoe designer (Manolo Blahblahblahniks)

Well, if it helps to be explicitly on FB topic, I *am* hoping a younger generation comes up to kick Donatella out of the reins at Versace. Though I suppose top-flight Italian whores will always need appropriate clothes.