Fashion Board 11-2-03 - 12-09-03

[andViolins]

Originally posted by baltassoc
[Santa rant] Why not? Who the hell thought this guy up?

Really, really, really white people.

And Coke.

The drink. Not the really, really, really white drug.

aV

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by bilmore
Ya' know, I didn't even notice the exclusionary re line. But, you'll be happy to know I'm bailing with you on this one. Boones Farm it is.

Aha. I first noticed it in your post, but it looks like it was actually created by Thurgreed. It's a ref to my comment yesterday about controversial topics becoming tiresome. Mystery solved.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by evenodds
That sounds wonderful, but . . .

A couple of weeks ago, I had the most amazing dessert ever. Seriously.

Though this is potentially outable, the dessert is called "miles of chocolate" and information about it can be found here: http://www.milesofchocolate.com/getit.asp

It's a cross between a brownie and a truffle and it is as close to heaven as you can get on a plate. Especially when paired with the perfect wine.

Hmm. It's available at Whole Foods. I might have to go and get it for another party on Saturday. hmmmmm...

[dtb]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I just nod, because nobody wants to be the chauvenistic asshole.

Well, except you, apparently.

Originally posted by mmm3587
I'm convinced that people will always complain about their situation and assume that others have it easier.

But, at some point, you've got to admit that most of the workplace discrimination against professional women is gone, daddy, gone.

Part I -- true.

Part II -- in the words of Homer Simpson, "No it isn't." (Well he actually says "No it doesn't" when Milhous complains it smells in the funhouse built of soiled mattresses that Homer got from the "For Free" column -- but you get the idea.)

Workplace discrimination against women is alive and well buddy. Perhaps the "chasing around the desk" business has fallen off rather precipitously, but just because it's not as blatant doesn't mean it's not there.

[dtb]

Originally posted by mmm3587
But don't try to be all Rosa Parks about your experience in the workplace, unless you can honestly look yourself in the mirror and say that you're getting screwed.

God, I missed this gem the first time around.

So unless you're getting "screwed," there's no discrimination? Interesting.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
I'm reminded of a book (or series of books?) about a bunch of kids who live in Minnesota who have some adventures while their Dad is away on a business trip to Duluth. Does anybody recall reading this/these in elementary school and know the author or title(s)?

This is not intended to diminish the thought-provokingness of your post, Flower.

I don't think these were the ones, but we had two picture books about kids who were left to their own devices for an afternoon. In the first, they decided to paint the house as a present to their parents, who had said something about the house needing to be painted. Lots and lots and lots of color, both inside and out. In the second, they were sent to the garage to play, and the ended up making an airplane or something out of an old VW engine and some other junk in the garage.

I still can't believe my parents let us read those books.

[evenodds]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Hmm. It's available at Whole Foods. I might have to go and get it for another party on Saturday. hmmmmm...

Get Miles of Chocolate and the OddMan will find his way to your door.

If I could only remember the name of the wine we had with it, I would be sure to send it along as well.

[dtb]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I mean a standard 12 week maternity leave, all paid. Men here get 6 weeks, paid. And don't take it, because the culture says that you can take a week or two, but it better not affect your overall hours.

Well then belly up and take the leave. If no one takes it, nothing will ever change.

At my husband's firm (not a law firm), men and women are entitled to parental leave, with the proviso that that person taking the paid parental leave be the primary caretaker. Men have taken it without their careers suffering.

Originally posted by mmm3587
At my firm, several women have made partner recently while on, recently returned from, or preparing to go on, an extended maternity leave.

So that means it's true everywhere? By "extended" maternity leave, I assume you mean more than the standard 12 weeks (or whatever it is). I don't pretend to know the statistics (and won't believe you if you tell me you do, unless you have some proof), but my guess is that's pretty unusual.

Sounds like you're just bitter you're not making partner.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by bilmore
Different subject, but just out of curiosity, do you see these differences as good and desirable things, or do you think that society would be better off with one shared culture, formed in a merger of the several different constituents (and, of course, hopefully including portions of each, such that no one constituent part is just subsumed)?

I ask this because it occurs to me that things seem to work ok when people combine, but never do when they insist on maintaining divisions.

I think that there is value in maintaining certain cultural differences. The problem is, the people who are not in power have to constantly reaffirm their cultures for fear of them being swallowed into the dominant one (which is why there are so many pride parades and home-country flag waving, etc.).

I don't think it's possible to create one all-encompassing shared culture. I believe that the U.S. does a better job than most other places in recognizing other cultures and to a certain extent our American culture consists of many different cultures. But it would be impossible to include everyone's traditions, cultures, heritages, etc. The goal is to avoid losing important cultural distinctions that make people different and interesting.

The problem that I and many other minorities face is the unwillingness (in the example we've been discussing so far) of the people we work for to recognize (and maybe even adopt) some of the differences we have. At the same time, I must fashion who I am to fit with those differences that exist on the other side. I am not talking in absolutes. I don't think all white partners and associates ignore and shun everything that makes me black and I don't adopt everything about them that will help them accept me. But I do a lot more reconciling than they do.

So, you're right. It works better when people combine. And I think this is happening slowly. Hell, today's younger generation is proof of that (I look at the interactions in high schools between races with envy). But we shouldn't go overboard to the extent that interesting things about certain cultures are lost in favor of what the larger group finds the most interesting.

TM

[dtb]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
This attitude really pisses me off. I work full-time. So does my spouse. We both take care of the kid. When one of us has to stay home, sometimes it's her, and sometimes it's me. All of this is hard, but I'm not asking for a medal or anything, because that's the way it is, and we both choose to work.

But the assumption that I'm doing less of the parenting just pisses me off. I get this in the workplace, from people who otherwise seem enlighted, and I just bite my tongue. I recognize that working mothers have a tough go of it, but some of them have spouses who don't work.

I know, you didn't mean me, you meant most men. Most people forget to add that caveat, though.

Of course I didn't mean you -- and I don't mean my husband either -- he pulls his weight at home too. But the assumption in the average case is that the man's job is more important (unless the woman makes a ton more money), so if someone's got to put the career on the back burner, it's going to be the little Mrs.

I can see why it would piss you off that people assume you're doing less when you're not -- but it's also annoying that the "baseline" assumption is that it's mom's "job" to take care of all the kid stuff and dad deserves a ticker-tape parade when he makes macaroni and cheese one night, or gives junior a bath on occasion.

The fact that there are men (probably mostly in our generation, and I am hopeful it will be true in generations to come) who pull their weight at home too is great. But I don't think it's the norm.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

And here are parts of a timely article that was forwarded to me.

'The FBI is investigating several threatening and racist letters that have been sent this year to black NFL players, including one prominent Miami Dolphins player who received a letter in September, reports The Palm Beach Post.

"It was a threatening letter," Weinstein told the Post. "It said, 'African-Americans shouldn't be allowed to play professional sports and shouldn't be allowed to make the money that football players make and entertainers make.' Mostly it was about the danger of racial mixing in our society."

The Dolphins' memo states that the letters and envelopes under analysis are typed and that the sender usually identifies him- or herself as "All Whites (or Caucasians), Angry white women."

On Wednesday, several Dolphins players also voiced concern.

"It's scary because you never know what you're opening now," safety Arturo Freeman told the newspaper. "The NFL is saying, 'Be careful.' In any entertainment industry, there is going to be jealousy and hate that people stir up. You just try to be aware and pray."

Said defensive tackle Larry Chester to the paper: "You would think that by now we'd be well past the hatred for individuals for their race or culture or anything. I didn't say I wanted to be born black. Ultimately, whatever color I am, or whatever religion, or whatever culture, I'm still a man."

"I think these people are hoping that with the notoriety of NFL players, their message will get out," safety Shawn Wooden told the Post.

"It's sad to see that in this day and age. But if it's one person or a couple of people doing this, it's something you have to live with. These people are looking for a response. And we're big enough to say that this type of letter doesn't deserve a response."'

Full article here: http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1677755

TM

[dtb]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I think that this generalization about men, and the one that you deleted about how men don't want to spend time with their kids,

I didn't delete it -- I'll say it again -- most dads would not want to stay home with their children all day every day. Not that they don't want to spend any time with them -- but that they wouldn't want to be the housewife. (Those may not have been the exact words, but that was the sentiment -- but I didn't delete anything, so sorry to burst what you likely thought was a great big bubble.)

Hell -- I don't want to be the housewife either -- it would drive me absolutely nuts -- not so much the being with the kids part (that's cool), but all the other garbage that goes along with being the housewife. It's hard work, and just because it's not some asshole calling you on the phone every 20 minutes about some bullshit contract (or whatever) doesn't mean it's a walk in the park, or that it's not "heavy lifting" (I forget who compared his job to the "heavy lifting" and his wife's was comparatively easier). It's not easier. It's different, to be sure, but it's not easier.

Don't tell me you haven't heard men saying it's like a vacation coming back to work after having been home for the weekend (or whatever period of time) with the kids! (I'm not saying you say that, maybe you do, maybe you don't -- but it's not an uncommon thing to hear.)

[evenodds]

We were trying to figure out who the "prominent dolphins player" is. My guess is Jason Taylor, since he is married to Zach Thomas's sister. The OM insisted it would be Thomas himself; since he introduced them, he would be the true traitor.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
[post]

I've got a lot to do today, so a quick short post:

I spend a lot more time around affluent minorities than I do around poor white people. And I do spend a lot of time in places where there aren't many white people. I play soccer in a Spanish-speaking league. My favorite local restaurant is mostly full of American blacks, and I spend at least one night a week hanging out at the reggae place down the street from me, which is about 90% Jamaicans. That said, it's not really relevant to this discussion (It's more of a Jerry Springer-esque, "You don't KNOW me!"), except to suggest that I don't spend all my time hanging out with the partners at my firm talking about favorite cuts of steak and how to keep minorities down.

That's about the most ignorant shit I've ever heard on the internet. You're obviously speaking somewhat facetiously, but your perception that those who are unlike you in racial makeup are sitting around conspiring to get you speaks volumes about your own pysche.

Am I denying racism? No. I'm not denying that you've experienced racism, either. And I've never denied that certain minorities, as a group, suffer from racism and the perceptions and faults of society more than white people, as a group, do. But, for many Americans, their troubles are not based in their race. They don't have no health insurance, or no education, or no chances to live a comfortable life, because of their race. They have those problems because of other social and governmental problems in our country. Do minorities and women suffer from these problems more than white guys do? Yes, unfortunately, they still do. But the problems in the lives of people do not begin and end with race.

And in changing the lives of people for the better, I don't feel that segregation and exclusion are the answers. I feel strongly that affirmative action programs in admissions and even hiring are appropriate. But, as I understand it, it's still illegal to give extra "points" because of race, or hire someone solely because he or she is part of a certain demographic. And I think it should be.

We've got to recognize that those who benefit from these programs, especially in, for example, prestigious law schools and law firms, are usually pretty divorced from the problems that currently face the rest of their protected class. And by drawing (what I feel to be, in a modern law firm) arbitrary lines about race (invite that guy, he's an affluent Jordanian whose family owns half of the filling stations in New Jersey, but don't invite that guy, he's a poor Jew from Omaha) when determining who gets to be a part of a certain program offends me. Just like it offends me when the culture of a law firm dictates it's appropriate for a woman to sculpt her career to work around her kids and her family, but it's in appropriate for a man to want to be around his children.

So, that's all. You're the one who's making the assumptions about me. The only assumption I've made about you is that your position in life is better than most black males your age. That doesn't seem far fetched. If true, it doesn't preclude you from feeling angry about racism or about wanting to have programs which, in your perception, will help to make our society racism-free. I don't think that benefits and programs directed only towards certain races are appropriate. I never have, and I never will. Even if they were, I don't think that that are likely to achieve the end that we're looking for.

EvenOdds can kick my ass whenever she wants. She knows that she wants me, and I can dig it. You're putting words in my mouth when you suggest I was saying you were going to get a bunch of black people together and jump me. But you're the one who threatened violence, and that pisses me off, too. My protestations and statements automatically become racism, and then they automatically become worthy of violent retribution. Even with all the things you've claimed that I've said, or claim that I do, or claim that I am, it amazes me that you think an answer to the attitudes you perceive me to have is to try to threaten me and intimidate me over the internet.

Cheers...

[bold_n_brazen]

Originally posted by dtb
stuff about husbands and wives and babies and responsibilities

FWIW, here's my story about husbands, wives, babies and money,

Currently I make more money than my husband. I took a 24 week maternity leave to care for the Brazenette, for which I was paid for 12 weeks.

After 24 weeks, my husband took 12 weeks FMLA leave to care for her.

Now, as that leave period draws to a close, we are seriously contemplating our family's future. We have come to some shocking realizations.

1. Neither of us wants her in day care or with a Nanny.
2. Both of us agree that I'd be happier staying at home with her, and she'd be happier if I didn't leave every morning.
3. No one is more shocked by the fact that I want to be a SAHM than me.
4. Husband needs to find a better job.

Now, this in no way is my being a greedy, lazy, using ho-bitch. I will continue to work if that is whats best for our family, or if it is necessary, or if that's what we have to do to make ends meet. But when we sit down and talk about how we'd like to run the little world inside the four walls of our home, we agree that we'd like him to be bringing home the bacon and me to be frying it up in a pan. It's not sexist, it's not even a gender thing. It's just how we feel.

Every situation is different. That's all I'm trying to say.