A disgusting vat of filth that no self-respecting intelligent person would wade into.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
when declaring their mission to be wrong and giving succor to the enemy - is the furthest thing from supporting the troops.

No.

Disagreeing with the government's policy decisions and/or the orders given to "the troops" and/or criticizing the results generated by the demonstrably incompetent policy development and planning structure layered on top of "the troops" is NOT at all a failure to "support the troops."

S_A_M

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
That was some high S Vietnam official shooting a suspected Cong guy. The publication of the photo here caused people of Icantread's ilk to question whether our allies were really good guys, given that one of them shot a guerrilla w/o a trial.

And the backstory is that the Viet Cong guerilla being executed had just been pulled out of the house where he had murdered the family of a close friend/subordinate of that official.

But that all came out much later, and never got much press.

S_A_M

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by nononono
Sigh. Greedy, you did the same silly, reactionary, empty thing Adder did.

As far as Guantanamo goes, perhaps this is radical, but it occurs to me (hold onto your hat!) that war is a dirty business. And humans are flawed. We're going to fuck up somewhere. Pretending this could possibly ever happen and still run an effective war and intelligence operation is purposefully and disingenuously naive. I'm not defending the fuck-ups, but I also don't find everything that has occurred on Guantanamo to be offensive, and certainly not against "our values."

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but reconstruction and civil matters are not our only concerns. There's this little thing called national security that some of us are concerned about, too (for starters), but of course what we're down to now, even if we managed to agreed on what "our values" are, is disagreeing as to method.

Are you saying that our troops are not torturers? Or that they are torturers, but that's ok?

If the former, I agree, and I wonder who you (and Slave) are arguing with. But that's the point that you don't want to get into.

If the latter, it seems that what is inhibiting our ability to win hearts and minds is not the NYTimes.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
The speech you suggest Bush gives says that he went to war, in Iraq, with the people who were responsible for 9/11.

You mean those guys weren't from I-raq!?!?!? SHIT!!

Geography is hard.

S_A_M

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Obviously torture. Some fool is putting honey in their Baklava.

We should have fed the babaganoush. I've heard that makes people say all kinds of shit.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by nononono
Remember all that talk about winning hearts and minds? Same goes here. If our troops are commonly referred to as "torturers," soon enough we all start thinking it's probably at least somewhat true. And if we believe that of ourselves, and consequently don't trust our military, that certainly helps the enemy.

The last thing I want to do is jump into the middle of this debate - and there are many "common references" I wouldn't make -- including the one to which you refer.

But how do you reconcile your position with the undeniable, plain fact that some of our government employees are torturing people and/or facilitating torture when they deem it necessary?

And that some small number of our troops -- acting on their own and illegally -- have also tortured people (Afghanis and Iraqis)? And yes -- these incidents do indeed hurt our image and our cause when they become known.

As to the first, I guess we don't discuss it much. It is all mostly secret.

As to the second, we're busy prosecuting those folks when discovered, but we shouldn't discuss it?

S_A_M

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
SAM, you're better than this. Her lies to and flim-flamming of the electorate are shameless and in the name of the one thing, her acension to power as a proxy for her RedChinese overlourds. I warned the people of NY and they ignored me.....if nothing else, Pirro was a lot easier on the eyes. I pray America is not so drunk on the plantation kool-aid that we can't save ourselves from this menace.

I'm sending my check to her next week.

S_A_M

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I'm sending my check to her next week.

S_A_M

Yeah, really. Penske's rantings are going to change me from a Hillary-hater to a Hillary-supporter.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
And lessee - shall we start with referring to Army personnel as "torturers"?

So, what you're saying is that anyone who doesn't stand silent in the face of certain military personnel violating basic standards of human conduct and decency is giving succor to the enemy?

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by nononono
Remember all that talk about winning hearts and minds? Same goes here. If our troops are commonly referred to as "torturers," soon enough we all start thinking it's probably at least somewhat true. And if we believe that of ourselves, and consequently don't trust our military, that certainly helps the enemy.

And if we stand by as some of our troops engage in conduct that is unlawful and immoral, sooner or later will we start to believe that there is no law or freedom? Doesn't that help the enemy more?

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I'm sending my check to her next week.

S_A_M

Sad. Despite your demo leanings I always sensed a healthy respect for our military and yet you support this charlatan who has no respect for our men and women in the service and given half a chance will sell out our military to Beijing.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Yeah, really. Penske's rantings are going to change me from a Hillary-hater to a Hillary-supporter.

\

Don;t blame me for your insanity, that's either the kool-aid talking or you have dined at Chez Ty and been served one too many mylar ziplocs of alcohol fortified grape juice.

[Adder]

Originally posted by Penske_Account
\

Don;t blame me for your insanity, that's either the kool-aid talking or you have dined at Chez Ty and been served one too many mylar ziplocs of alcohol fortified grape juice.

Can we revisit the rule that says I can't ignore a mod?

[SlaveNoMore]

Sidd Finch
Cite, please.

For starters:

AI, in a 2005 report that quickly tosses aside the genocide in Darfur, then goes on a lengthy diatribe about how Gitmo "has become the Gulag of our times" I'm sure those who survived the gulag might disagree.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGPOL100142005

---
Here's Durbin, as reported on that mainstream site Al Jareera:

"US Senator Dick Durbin on Wednesday refused to apologise for comments he made on the Senate floor referring to Nazis, Soviet gulags and a "mad regime" like Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge in Cambodia"...

"This administration should apologise to the American people for abandoning the Geneva Conventions and authorising torture techniques that put our troops at risk and make Americans less secure," Durbin had said in a statement on Wednesday evening.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/ar...rchiveId=13014

If reports like that on Al Jazeera don't lend support to the enemy, I sure as hell don't know what does

----
The HuffPost and Kos - please, practically every other entry. I'm too busy to waste my time doing the string search.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by nononono
I find it, as a sort of an aside, completely ridiculous that people are so sensitive that we had to shut down the place. Fixing the fuck-up in Abu Ghraib's case could have been accomplished by a clean-up and punishment of all responsible or involved, not necessarily a shuttering. I can understand wanting to raze Dachau. I can understand bulldozing countless prisons in Saddam's Iraq. I would imagine Ho Chi Minh City has a couple of spots no one should have to pass by. But what Lynndie England and her moronic band of trash did doesn't come close to the kind of power and terror exercised in those other examples (which is not to say they might not have done much worse, had they the unfettered power and brainstems to do so). Soccer in Iraq, anyone? http://espn.go.com/oly/s/2002/1220/1480103.html
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/si_...son_of_saddam/

Guantanamo doesn't even come close.

This makes sense. Well, up until the links to People Who Behave Worse Than Us.