Politics: A new beginning

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
And if it's Fox News saying it, the mortar shells must have actually contained some kind of antidote for bio-chem weapons.

Is Fox News using "has learned" so it can wiggle out of it if it turns out to be completely wrong? Just wondering if there's good info-sharing on the right.

Concur. SAM was just pointing out the soldiers over there support Dean over bush. They have an interest in hiding anything that radiaites that is found.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Um, in Bosnia wasn't there like a mass civil war going on with random people shooting at each other and a general lack of any kind of regime? So we were going in to impose and keep the peace. Iraq had a bad and violent regime, but there was order and after they killed/crippled/imprisoned the people who rose up under the last Bush action thinking they'd get backup, it didn't seem as though there was any kind of generalized war thing going on.

So unstructured mass murder= we go in
efficient mass murder by an unchallengable regime=okay for now..............
I bet you got a couple cousins or siblings nicknamed 'Dolf.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I bet you got a couple cousins or siblings nicknamed 'Dolf.

We did not exactly invade Nazi Germany to stop mass murder. We didn't go to war with them at all until they declared war on us after Pearl Harbor.

Two+ years earlier, with Neville Chamberlain as Prime Minister, England declared war on Germany after it invaded Poland. So maybe he should be your hero.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
Two years earlier, Neville Chamberlain led England to declare war on Germany after it invaded Poland. So maybe he should be your hero.

Is this true? Not Churchill?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Is this true? Not Churchill?

Yes. Chamberlain stepped down on May 9, 1940, and Churchill became PM the next day. John Lukacs has written some books about this period -- including, in particular, Five Days In London -- which I highly recommend. There were some (Lord Halifax) in the government who favored seeking a separate peace with the Germans around that time. Churchill resisted, with -- crucially -- Chamberlain's support.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
We did not exactly invade Nazi Germany to stop mass murder. We didn't go to war with them at all until they declared war on us after Pearl Harbor.

Two+ years earlier, with Neville Chamberlain as Prime Minister, England declared war on Germany after it invaded Poland. So maybe he should be your hero.

It was a joke. I tried to make it obvious enough that even Fringe wouldn't get mad. I mean, I called her a Nazi, get it? You aren't suppose to do that.
And the mass murder we turned away from was great in Asia pre WW2.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
Yes. Chamberlain stepped down on May 9, 1940, and Churchill became PM the next day. John Lukacs has written some books about this period -- including, in particular, Five Days In London -- which I highly recommend. There were some (Lord Halifax) in the government who favored seeking a separate peace with the Germans around that time. Churchill resisted, with -- crucially -- Chamberlain's support.

Was Lord Halifax the Lord of Remains of the Day, or inspiration I should say?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Was Lord Halifax the Lord of Remains of the Day, or inspiration I should say?

No idea. I read the book, but can't really recall anything about it now.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
Yes. Chamberlain stepped down on May 9, 1940, and Churchill became PM the next day. John Lukacs has written some books about this period -- including, in particular, Five Days In London -- which I highly recommend. There were some (Lord Halifax) in the government who favored seeking a separate peace with the Germans around that time. Churchill resisted, with -- crucially -- Chamberlain's support.

Interesting. With all the late night history channel and cspan I watch, I should have known that.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
No idea. I read the book, but can't really recall anything about it now.

Ty, when you posted about Spalding, I though we were Ying/Yang politics, but harmonious culturally; but now this. It is perhaps my favorite novel.
the main charecter, A butler, had worked for a Lord who wanted to appease the Germans.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
So unstructured mass murder= we go in
efficient mass murder by an unchallengable regime=okay for now..............
I bet you got a couple cousins or siblings nicknamed 'Dolf.

Are you trying to out me, you bastard? Stuff I tell you about my family really should not be revealed on the board.

Are you seriously saying that you can't see the difference between a huge civil war and a violent sadistic dictator? There's no way we could have characterized the action in Iraq as a peace-keeping mission. We were invading a sovereign nation that had well-settled borders and a government that was pretty well in control of the country (with some isolated pockets of unrest in some areas far from the capital).

Again, not to belittle either of the occasions I mentioned earlier (Kurds, uprising after first Gulf War), did Iraq have any mass murder stuff happen since, oh, the turn of the latest century? Domestically, things seemed fucked up but generally peaceful over there before we went in.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Are you trying to out me, you bastard? Stuff I tell you about my family really should not be revealed on the board.

Are you seriously saying that you can't see the difference between a huge civil war and a violent sadistic dictator? There's no way we could have characterized the action in Iraq as a peace-keeping mission. We were invading a sovereign nation that had well-settled borders and a government that was pretty well in control of the country (with some isolated pockets of unrest in some areas far from the capital).

Again, not to belittle either of the occasions I mentioned earlier (Kurds, uprising after first Gulf War), did Iraq have any mass murder stuff happen since, oh, the turn of the latest century? Domestically, things seemed fucked up but generally peaceful over there before we went in.

I thought we found some fresh mass graves.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Ty, when you posted about Spalding, I though we were Ying/Yang politics, but harmonious culturally; but now this. It is perhaps my favorite novel.
the main charecter, A butler, had worked for a Lord who wanted to appease the Germans.

Since I can't even recall posting about Spalding now, the problem is surely with my short term memory, not my taste. I recall really liking Remains Of The Day, but am blanking on the German angle in it. Is it really central?

eta:

Never mind, Spalding Gray, got it. Was trying to remember a _____ Spalding. Maybe the tennis ball tsar. Did you ever read Impossible Vacation? A friend gave it to me, but I've never been moved to open it.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I thought we found some fresh mass graves.

If that is the case, and there was active genocidal activity that we knew about (or had strong reason to believe in) before we went, then I will partially concede the point. Though, that's not why they said we were going in.

I still, though, think there is a difference between going in to an area where there is a high level of active armed conflict and governmental etc. stuff is extremely unsettled and invading a sovereign nation.

(I have no idea whether the "sovereign nation" thingy makes sense or not but it sure sounds good, doesn't it?)

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Again, not to belittle either of the occasions I mentioned earlier (Kurds, uprising after first Gulf War), did Iraq have any mass murder stuff happen since, oh, the turn of the latest century? Domestically, things seemed fucked up but generally peaceful over there before we went in.

You'll find a lot of people saying that he killed one to two million over the last dozen years (forget about before that, since he was our ally). Here's how they get there:

Invasion of Kuwait and subsequent war: 100,000
(note that at the time the US said the number was much lower, since most of those who died in this war died in the US bombing campaign or, to a lesser degree, were Iraqi soldiers during the US invasion)

Suppression of Kurds: 100,000
This number seems to be used a lot, but I can't find where it comes from. Doesn't seem to be heavily disputed, and seems to be an estimate focused just on the 90s, not on what came before

Suppression of Shi'ites immediately post war in Kuwait: 100,000
This number seems to be drawn from thin air because all the other numbers above are 100,000; it is clear there are mass graves of hundreds of people from this period, but some say at most a couple thousand, others say 10 to 20 thousand, and the 100,000 number starts showing up when people are trying to get to 1 million

Iraqi dead in Iran - Iraq war -- 500,000
The numbers seem to go from 150,000 to 700,000, but a lot of people use 500,000; apparently Hussein threw this figure out a lot, but he was usually trying to say how evil the Iranians are so to build more war fever and may well have been overstating.

Then round up to 1 million, or, if you want to get to 2 million, assert 750,000 or more Iranians dead in the Iraq/Iran war and throw in a couple hundred thousand from pre 1990 and some estimate for the most recent war (has anyone heard an estimate from the US of numbers dead on the Iraqi side - I don't think we have an interest in seeing a big number here?)

[An interesting fact, simply noted as a data point, is that most of the deaths attributed to Saddam occurred as the direct result of a piece of metal fired from a US or Iranian weapon. And the most heinous activity, widespread killing of the Kurds, is activity we overlook in Turkey and positively condoned up to a point in time.]