Politics: J'accuse!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me

• DUBAI (Reuters) - Al Qaeda's leader in Iraq beheaded an American civilian and vowed more killings in revenge for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, an Islamist Web site said Tuesday.
  
  A poor quality videotape on the site showed a man dressed in orange overalls sitting bound on a white plastic chair in a bare room, then on the floor with five masked men behind him.
  
  "My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael... I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah," said the bound man, adding he was from Philadelphia.
  
  After one of the masked men read out a statement, they pushed Berg to the floor and shouted "God is greatest" above his screams as one of them sawed his head off with a large knife then held it aloft for the camera.
  
  The Web site said Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a top ally of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, was the man who cut off Berg's head. The statement read out before the killing was signed off with Zarqawi's name and dated May 11.
  
  Jordanian-born Zarqawi, 37, has raised his profile and status as al Qaeda's most active operational leader with a series of suicide bombs and attacks on U.S. troops in Iraq.
  
  A State Department official said Tuesday the body of a U.S. citizen identified as Berg had been found in Baghdad. The official said Berg had no ties to the U.S. military or the Defense Department, but offered no further details.
  
  "He was a private American citizen not associated with a military contract," said the State Department official, speaking on condition of anonymity.
  
  It was not immediately possible to verify the authenticity of the tape carried on the Muntada al-Ansar Islamist Web site.
  
  The ritual killing resembled the murder of U.S. reporter Daniel Pearl, beheaded by Islamist militants in Pakistan.
  
  Berg's orange overalls were reminiscent of those worn by al Qaeda detainees held by U.S. troops at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.
  
  Photographs shown around the world of naked Iraqi prisoners stacked in a pyramid or positioned to simulate sex acts at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad have provoked international anger and become a serious setback to U.S. efforts to stabilize Iraq.
  
  President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair have both apologized and pledged to punish those responsible but both governments have come under pressure for senior ministers to be held responsible for the abuse.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=5108202

Now that I've read this, I'm sickened. Still outraged.

You ought to be outraged that our treatment of Iraqi prisoners made this sort of thing more likely. More Americans will die because of what our military did. I think this was George Will's point, not mine, but he's dead on.

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
I feel for him and his family. Of course, I was anti-beheading before the war. I was on record against beheadings before 9/11, too. The CPA has my permission to capture or kill the five (?) men who did this. (NB: Not capture and kill. Or. FWIW.)

Right now I'd really like to see some pictures of some happy Iraqis. Anyone know where I can find some?

Why, there are happy Iraqis everywhere! Here are some happy Iraqis with their shiny new firetruck!

http://www.iraqcoalition.org/regions...srah/index.htm

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Not Me
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/051...issingman.html

• "My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Susan," the man said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia."
  
  After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting "Allahu Akbar!" – "God is great." They then held the head out before the camera.

Fuck Allah.

And for good measure, Fuck God.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Now that I've read this, I'm sickened. Still outraged.

You ought to be outraged that our treatment of Iraqi prisoners made this sort of thing more likely. More Americans will die because of what our military did. I think this was George Will's point, not mine, but he's dead on.

If you have read even one of my posts on this topic, then you know that was exactly my point, too. That the pictures made it less safe for those on the front lines. I said that repeatedly.

However, this was not done by Iraqi insurgents. This was done by Al Quaeda and they would have done this no matter what happened in that prison. Daniel Pearl was killed in the same manner way before the prison scandel broke. This killing has nothing to do with the prison scandel. More front line resistence by Iraqi insurgents, though, and more distrust by the Iraqi people will occur because of the prison scandel.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Not Me
I didn't say it makes what went on in that prison OK.

For the 15th million time, this is about getting some perspective. You Blame-America-First types sorely lack perspective in these matters.

Wow! You mean that al Qaeda is worse than the U.S. Army?

Now I get it! That really opens my eyes!

Not much of a campaign slogan, though. Talk about setting the bar low.

S_A_M

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Not if we violated the Geneva Conventions.

Other people doing bad stuff doesn't make our doing bad stuff OK.

Perhaps this will help. Maybe the American who was beheaded sexually molested his niece. Do you know that he didn't? If he did, does that make what happened to him OK? I don't think it does make what happened to him OK. I think even if the Iraqis knew he molested his niece, it doesn't make it OK. I think even if the Iraqis knew he raped an Iraqi woman, if they killed him because Americans wouldn't trade him for their prisoners, that is not OK.

I don't think any of the killing is OK even if we find out that American and coalition forces killed exactly as many Iraqis held for questioning as Iraqis kill coalition hostages. Not OK. Iraqi actions -- bad. American actions -- bad.

I find our actions somewhat worse because everyone has been on their moral high horse about how bad Iraqis are and how wonderful we are. And, because I would like to think, like Rumsfeld and Bush apparently do, that Americans wouldn't do such things. It's not acceptable in our society, the American military has knowledge of studies showing that untrained people left in total control of other people can end up doing horrible things to them, and we have strong policies against it. Yet, it happened, and it continued to happen over a period of time, despite there having been reports,both internally and from the Red Cross, of behavior that (we are told) was prohibited by various American and other coalition policies.

Maybe I identify with Americans (duh, because I am one) too much not to feel ashamed and embarassed about what our people have done, though I think ashamed and embarassed are
weak words. I am angry and sad at the bad acts of the Iraqis. I am angry and sad and ashamed of the bad acts of Americans.

See, when I read something like this, I know the "divide" in this country is more created than actual. Everyone should agree with the fringe as to the above. I feel like i could go on vacation and leave fringe my log in, and she would do okay as Hank- I wouldn't do it near a holiday requiring PS work.

What's different is where we think it should go as to "punishment." As Panda has said, he wants Bush to go for this, but he did anyway. To me, we have to clean up, if those who ignored this extend to Rumsfeld, can his ass. But we need to keep a focus on WHAT this stuff requires us to do now.

As I said, to our enemies, the "torture" is trivial. For us to back away because some guards fucked up would be a big ass mistake.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You ought to be outraged that our treatment of Iraqi prisoners made this sort of thing more likely. More Americans will die because of what our military did.

Ty, this is a loser argument. Drop it now, withdraw it now.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
As I said, to our enemies, the "torture" is trivial. For us to back away because some guards fucked up would be a big ass mistake.

Count me among the liberals who say that simply rolling up the tents and going home is not an option. The guys writing the placards for our side are naive on this. But you're misinterpreting "invasion was a mistake" with "we must withdraw" on purpose, because you want the lunacy of the second proposition to infect the debate on the first.

It's necessary for us to think about whether invasion was a good idea, putting aside our response to the situation now. Methinks most non-neo conservatives want us to have this debate, too --- they just want it to start mid-November.

Or perhaps your perspective is, "Well, it was all a big clusterfuck, but we can't talk about it until the mess is cleaned up, because the discussion harms America's regional interests as long as troops are on the ground." If I assure you al Qaeda doesn't read this board, will you at least let us know that's where you're coming from, so we don't waste any more time trying to convince you it's a clusterfuck?

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Ty, this is a loser argument. Drop it now, withdraw it now.

It isn't a loser argument in the sense that now we've started into a vicious cycle -- their beheading the guy will now make it more likely and understandable for Americans to do stupid inhumane unnecessary things to Iraqis, which will in turn make it more likely and understandable for Iraqis to do stipid inhumane unnecessary things to Americans and so on and so on and so on.

Pls. PM your login info. Thx.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
[eta: P.S. I am at this moment speaking to a military officer who is pretty familiar (second-hand) with the contents of the unreleased photos and videos. That person's words include "tip of the tip of the iceberg" and "we're screwed".]

Be sure and pass on my advice about banning cameras in military prisons. They really should take my advice.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
It isn't a loser argument in the sense that now we've started into a vicious cycle -- their beheading the guy will now make it more likely and understandable for Americans to do stupid inhumane unnecessary things to Iraqis, which will in turn make it more likely and understandable for Iraqis to do stipid inhumane unnecessary things to Americans and so on and so on and so on.

Pls. PM your login info. Thx.

well I'd say Daniel Pearl, but that'd make me racist for equating Pakistani al Queda with Iraqui al Queda, plus I'm led to believe there is no al queda in Iraq anyway so this may prove to be a hoax.

Conf to Atticus- very busy now will respond to your above later- must do legal work sometimes- where the fuck is bilmore?

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Wow! You mean that al Qaeda is worse than the U.S. Army?

Now I get it! That really opens my eyes!

Not much of a campaign slogan, though. Talk about setting the bar low.

S_A_M

Well at least you get it. There are a few on this board (Hi Fringey and AG!) who don't.

As for campaign slogans, "I committed war crimes" isn't exactly a good one for Kerrey. Bet he is sorry he characterized what he did in Vietnam that way.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
It's necessary for us to think about whether invasion was a good idea,

What good does that do to do that now? No good except because you think it gives you a partisan advantage in the elections. We don't even know the ultimate outcome of the invasion. If the ultimate outcome ends up being what was hoped for pre-invasion, then the answer is different than if the ultimate outcome is a civil war in Iraq. Get it?

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
What's different is where we think it should go as to "punishment." As Panda has said, he wants Bush to go for this, but he did anyway. To me, we have to clean up, if those who ignored this extend to Rumsfeld, can his ass. But we need to keep a focus on WHAT this stuff requires us to do now.

In theory, I think Bush should go too. In practice, we have to choose between alternatives, and I cannot bring myself to vote for JFK or Nader over Bush. If Biden was running, I'd vote for him in a heartbeat.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Not Me
What good does that do to do that now? No good except because you think it gives you a partisan advantage in the elections. We don't even know the ultimate outcome of the invasion. If the ultimate outcome ends up being what was hoped for pre-invasion, then the answer is different than if the ultimate outcome is a civil war in Iraq. Get it?

2003: "Whaddaya mean, 'It's too soon to tell', ya fuckin' moron! It's over! We won! No quagmire!"*

2004: "It's too soon to tell."

*Paraphrasing the old PB, now suspiciously lost.