Nutjobs Ranting About Politics.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I remember being 14 and coming home drunk one night. My parents *suspected* that I'd been drinking. I told mum and pops that I was at the library with X & Y, but they busted me with the old "X & Y stopped by an hour ago looking for you and said they hadn't seen you at all tonight". For me at least, mum and pop didn't care 11 years later when I told them that I had actually been at the library a month earlier, and with Z (who I was now married to). They knew I still told a bald-faced and deliberate lie that night. Kerry was neither drunk nor a teenager when he pounded the table with his lie in 1986 (or whenever).

Kerry said he was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve, and you're upset that he was really on the border that day, and actually in Cambodia the next. Whatfuckingever. You can have your problems with him, but don't pretend that this is cause and not symptom.

And yet, some people actually signed up for second and third tours. When you say Kerry did something dishonorable that was "par for the course" among a million veterans, I hope you fully understand why so many others treat him like a leper. It might have been par for the course for people like Kerry (and in direct contrast with the absolutely unassailable service of many other democratic politicians), but hundreds of thousands, or perhaps more than a million, of Vietnam veterans sit back and think "I didn't write myself up for purple hearts under such circumstances".

Dishonorable my ass. He served, which is more than most people can say. The reason why (some) veterans are cheesed off at him is that he criticized the war when he came back. Unfortunately, the military (officers') culture and the loyalty it demands are sometimes inconsistent with the idea of dissent in democracy. We all know why these vets don't like Kerry, but they should stop pretending that it has anything to do with what happened in Vietnam. And you should stop pretending that it has anything to do with who got Purple Hearts.

Oh, and I'm glad that you brought up the injured by shrapnel thing. He continually manages to use that shrapnel line in the same sentence as his purple hearts. Is it just clever wording, or does he actually have shrapnel from enemy fire that was used for a Purple Heart citation? Because, if not, its misleading and deplorable to tie the two together.

I don't know, and I don't care. Why don't you try to figure out the real reasons you're deploring him, because it doesn't have to do with shrapnel.

Start "smearing" people? This started in March, and Kerry was one of the original smearers. Now his allies in the media appear to be using forged documents to continue that effort, ironically just 3 weeks after Kerry cried like a little girl about questioning of his military service (and no more than 6 months after the Dems and Moveon et al. started this line of debate by questioning Bush's Nat. Guard service). Who is smearing who again?

I don't know what you mean by "this," but we were talking about the Swift Crap. If you mean the to-do about Bush's service, (1) it was out there four years ago, when Kerry was not involved, (2) it's a long way from being proved that the documents were forged, (3) I agree with you that if the documents were forged, it's a smear, and (4) there is plenty of evidence, old and new, that Bush blew off his service in a way that should offend the veterans among us. Except that this isn't about whether Kerry or Bush served honorably, it's about how they adhere to or challenge the (right-wing) culture of the officer corps.

And a "lot of lying" isn't really all that accurate. A "lot of hatred" is. The lying that has been exposed is Kerry's own lies, as told throughout his political career. His own campaign has been forced to revise his history in how many ways?

As you know, the Swift Veterans have done a lot of lying themselves -- if they're telling the truth know, many of them have lied before. This doesn't seem to bother you, yet you profess to be upset that Kerry said he was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve, 1968, instead of on the border. Stop and think about this for a second. Meanwhile, Bush has lied up and down about his Guard service -- the story keeps changing to fit the newest documents. If you really cared about lying, this would bother you.

This is about the military culture's disdain for someone from within it with the temerity to dissent. These guys are willing to smear Kerry just to get him back for having the courage to stand up in 1971 and say things that were, in retrospect, by and large correct. If more Kerrys had spoken up sooner, maybe there would have been fewer Purple Hearts awarded in Vietnam. A lot of people who served there are troubled by this to this day, but they aren't blowhards purporting to speak for the military.

Care to lay your odds on a Kerry victory in November?

Hank and I already have a bet, thanks. I still think his odds are better than even.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
I have a relative who got a fucking limb blown off in Vietnam. He is offended that Kerry was awarded a purple heart for one of those "injuries."

I'm sure he's equally offending by all the other people who served in Vietnam who also got Purple Hearts for what you respectfully call injuries.

Did I say "served in Vietnam"? Whoops -- I meant served since World War II. Consider Bob Dole's description of the incident that earned him his first Purple Heart:

• "As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg--the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart."

I'm sure your relative is equally offended by Bob Dole and his Purple Heart, just as I'm sure that it drives Hello to the same fits of distraction that Kerry's Purple Heart does.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'm sure he's equally offending by all the other people who served in Vietnam who also got Purple Hearts for what you respectfully call injuries.

Did I say "served in Vietnam"? Whoops -- I meant served since World War II. Consider Bob Dole's description of the incident that earned him his first Purple Heart:

• "As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire. I took a grenade in hand, pulled the pin, and tossed it in the direction of the farmhouse. It wasn't a very good pitch (remember, I was used to catching passes, not throwing them). In the darkness, the grenade must have struck a tree and bounced off. It exploded nearby, sending a sliver of metal into my leg--the sort of injury the Army patched up with Mercurochrome and a Purple Heart."

I'm sure your relative is equally offended by Bob Dole and his Purple Heart, just as I'm sure that it drives Hello to the same fits of distraction that Kerry's Purple Heart does.

Translation:Ty's getting worried that the $160 is money he's spent, and Ty Jr. need new shoes.

Its time for those of us who love Ty despite his shortcomings to stand up. I am willing to cover $20 of Ty's loss. AG? SAM? the rest?

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'm sure your relative is equally offended by Bob Dole and his Purple Heart,

Bob Dole lost the use of a limb in a war. No, he is not offended by Bob Dole's purple hearts.

It is simply ridiculous to compare Kerry's "injuries" to Bob Dole's loss of the use of a limb.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Not Me
Bob Dole lost the use of a limb in a war. No, he is not offended by Bob Dole's purple hearts.

It is simply ridiculous to compare Kerry's "injuries" to Bob Dole's loss of the use of a limb.

Has JFK ever claimed that his war injuries contributed to his inability to make facial expressions?

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'm sure your relative is equally offended by Bob Dole and his Purple Heart, just as I'm sure that it drives Hello to the same fits of distraction that Kerry's Purple Heart does.

I'll skip the other 4 simultaneous *debates* we're having and even bow out. Your efforts are needed by the 15% of the electorate that switched choices in the last few weeks. As for Dole's injuries and his purple hearts, I'd be offended if:

1.) During WWII, Dole did not, and was not supposed to, receive a Purple Heart under such circumstances (i.e., self-inflicted, while not under enemy fire);
2.) Dole tied his injuries to Purple Hearts he received under other circumstances. (i.e., I'm a wounded veteran who received three purple hearts and I carry injurious shrapnel around with me); and
3.) The only shrapnel Dole carried around was from his own grenade.

As it is, 1.) Dole did, and was supposed to, receive a Purple Heart for his circumstances. Maybe the rules changed later. 2.) and 3.) Dole doesn't need to tie his self-inflicted injuries to medals. He's got some obvious wounds that were not self-inflicted.

On another note, who is saying Kerry was in Cambodia later? Is it only the 4 would-be cabinet secretaries who had the misfortune to serve under him for his 3-hour*, er, 4-month tour. Or was it one of the adults in charge who did things like scheduling?

And on yet another note, is there a good summary of what Bush lied about for his N.G. service? I haven't even been able to keep up with the outstanding allegations.

Hello

*Attribution for all-things Gilligan on this board is made to the honorable Mr. Chinaski.

[Diane_Keaton]

The Washington Post is finally reporting on the forgeries but for a paper that ran pretty far with the 60 minutes story on the documents, they are pretty lame in their report on the forgery. According to the Post:

Experts consulted by a range of news organizations pointed typographical and formatting questions about four documents as they considered the possibility that they were forged.

The experts pointed questions? Is that what they did? OR DID THEY PRETTY MUCH ALL PUT THEIR ESTIMATE ON THE CHANCE OF THE DOCS BEING FORGED AT OVER 90% Wouldn't want to include THAT in the story.

And if Killian's son and widow are disputing the memos' authenticity, and CBS either didn't ask them about the memos or blew off their input on whether the memos were authentic....WTF???

[bilmore]

Just in case the forgeries aren't enough to sustain conversation for two months:

-------------------------

Ben Barnes: Another Hoax?

Actually, I'm sure that Ben Barnes' claim of having interceded to place President Bush in the Texas Air National Guard as a favor to his family is a hoax. What I'm not sure about is whether this report is correct:

A woman alleging herself to be none other than Amy Barnes, daughter of fromer Lt Gov Ben Barnes called into a Texas radio program being hosted by well-known host Monica Crowley.
The woman, stating that her politics differed greatly from her Fathers, stated that he informed her months ago that he was going to "go public" with this story, known to be false. She claims that he has acknowledged the untruthfulness of this story to her over the years. She claims that there are two motivations for his doing this. One, to gain publicity for a book he is writing and, 2 the desperation of the Kerry campaign at this moment in time. Apparently Barnes offered to carry this tainted water if it appeared necessary in the general election to help secure a Kerry victory.

I cannot personally verify the woman's identity, although Barnes does indeed have a daughter Amy. Also, WABC radio has replayed the phone-in interview twice tonight in drive time radio host Mark Levin's program.

------------------------------------------

(From Powerline , which, you should all note, broke the forgery story, and is powered by several quite brilliant Minnesota lawyers.)

[bilmore]

Originally posted by bilmore
Just in case the forgeries aren't enough to sustain conversation for two months:

I forgot to add:

The new Bilmore Estimate goes 79% Bush, for a stunning 44% gain in four days. Details at 11.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
"As we approached the enemy, there was a brief exchange of gunfire.

Remember, Kerry's version starts with "as we approached the killer rice, there was a brief exchange of . . . well . . . nothing . . . but it could have been really dangerous rice . . . ."

[bilmore]

Words fail me.

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog...deutsche_.html

[SlaveNoMore]

bilmore
I forgot to add:

The new Bilmore Estimate goes 79% Bush, for a stunning 44% gain in four days. Details at 11.

Toldyaso

[And with this post.....off to Wisconsin]

[bilmore]

The Kerry camp is already starting to cover.

They KNEW the docs weren't quite right, but gave them to CBS to let them decide what to do with them:

-------------------

"More than a couple people heard about the papers," says the DNC staffer. "I've heard that they ended up with the Kerry campaign, for them to decide to how to proceed, and presumably they were handed over to 60 Minutes, which used them the other night. But I know this much. When there was discussion here, there were doubts raised about their authenticity."

The concerns arose from the sourcing. "It wasn't clear that our source for the documents would have had access to them. Our person couldn't confirm from what file, from what original source they came from."

The documents that CBS News used were not documents from any of Bush's personnel files from his time in the National Guard. Rather, CBS News stated that they were documents uncovered in the personnel files of Killian. That would explain why the White House or the Pentagon had never before released or even seen them.

According to a Kerry campaign source, there was little gossip about the supposedly hot documents inside the office of the campaign on McPherson Square. "Those documents were not something anyone was talking about or trying to generate buzz on," says the staffer. "It wasn't like there were small groups of people talking about this as a bombshell. I think people here weren't sure what to make of it, because provenance of these documents was uncertain."

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=7096

Desperate times call for . . . .

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Me
It is simply ridiculous to compare Kerry's "injuries" to Bob Dole's loss of the use of a limb.

That would be ridiculous. That is not, however, what I said, dumbass.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I'll skip the other 4 simultaneous *debates* we're having and even bow out. Your efforts are needed by the 15% of the electorate that switched choices in the last few weeks. As for Dole's injuries and his purple hearts, I'd be offended if:

1.) During WWII, Dole did not, and was not supposed to, receive a Purple Heart under such circumstances (i.e., self-inflicted, while not under enemy fire);
2.) Dole tied his injuries to Purple Hearts he received under other circumstances. (i.e., I'm a wounded veteran who received three purple hearts and I carry injurious shrapnel around with me); and
3.) The only shrapnel Dole carried around was from his own grenade.

As it is, 1.) Dole did, and was supposed to, receive a Purple Heart for his circumstances. Maybe the rules changed later. 2.) and 3.) Dole doesn't need to tie his self-inflicted injuries to medals. He's got some obvious wounds that were not self-inflicted.

I have a hard time believing that what offends you is the possible discrepancy between Kerry's Purple Heart and the governing Army regulations, especially since you don't seem to be galled by Bush's casual disregard for several different provisions ostensibly governing his National Guard service. Dole's point was that minor injuries -- and not just the more severe injuries he later received -- routinely brought Purple Hearts, a fact of life that doesn't seem to have troubled you or anyone else until the recipient in question was a Democratic candidate for President.

On another note, who is saying Kerry was in Cambodia later?

Inter alia, Brinkley, based on Kerry's diary.

And on yet another note, is there a good summary of what Bush lied about for his N.G. service? I haven't even been able to keep up with the outstanding allegations.

Kevin Drum has done a fairly good job of keeping up with the major developments.