Politics: A new beginning

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by sgtclub
It's called rhetoric. Are you and AG REALLY offended. Please. You both have tougher skin than that.

Paging Bilmore. We need an independent referee's call on whether "Democrats think the murders of 3,000 Americans are petty crime" is less beyond the pale than a more hypothetical assertion, say, "Republicans hate children, the poor, and the elderly and wish them ill."

Think carefully before responding; the fate of the board's civility rests in your capable hands.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Paging Bilmore. We need an independent referee's call on whether "Democrats think the murders of 3,000 Americans are petty crime" is less beyond the pale than a more hypothetical assertion, say, "Republicans hate children, the poor, and the elderly and wish them ill."

Think carefully before responding; the fate of the board's civility rests in your capable hands.

Hey, yesterday I was absolving Hitler when I blamed Hussein for mass murders.

When I think back to the early days of this board, Clubby was one of the folks who engaged in serious discussion (granted, with an occassional flip comment here and there, as we all do, me perhaps more than many others) about issues. He helped keep it from becoming as infested with stupid socks as the infirm board.

Maybe it is inevitable that the ad hominem and stupid charges will get worse as the election season kicks in. I hope not. I know Clubby and all the rest are capable of a good civil but lively argument on the issues.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Paging Bilmore. We need an independent referee's call on whether "Democrats think the murders of 3,000 Americans are petty crime" is less beyond the pale than a more hypothetical assertion, say, "Republicans hate children, the poor, and the elderly and wish them ill."

Think carefully before responding; the fate of the board's civility rests in your capable hands.

I think I can handle this one.

Step back from the edge Atti. you and Ty are more Greens then Dems. Club wasn't talking about you. you don't think the buildings should have been built or the plane fueled. you've the ability to distance from this.

Let's preserve the republic.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Step back from the edge Atti. you and Ty are more Greens then Dems. Club wasn't talking about you. you don't think the buildings should have been built or the plane fueled. you've the ability to distance from this.

See, now this was funny.

Saying that the GOP has a monopoly on outrage or grief for 9/11 is still over the edge and not at all funny. Unless clubby is a troll sock for one of my liberal SF/SV friends (in which case, piss on you and knock it off), he has no right to tell me how I felt or what I lost on 9/11. My outrage at him is quite genuine. I say it's against the rules of decorum, because if someone said it to my face I'd never speak to them again. I have that right in a chat room, too.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
This is almost a fair point, and if the general had not switched parties to run for president, I'd probably agree with you. But he did, and that plus the flip flops just adds to the view that he is an ambitious opportunist.

Unlike every other politician? Bush? Clinton? Or are you just irked that he doesn't hide it better?

It's called rhetoric. Are you and AG REALLY offended. Please. You both have tougher skin than that.

I think Atticus was annoyed because he thought you were talking about him. I took it as unthinking hyperbole about Democrats in general, but not about anyone in particular, and so I thought it was more unthinking than offensive. Surely you know that many of us were deeply affected by 9/11, and so suggesting that we did not take it seriously is beyond the pale. You call it rhetoric, but either you meant it or you didn't, and if you didn't mean it it was a dumb thing to say. Some of us lost people, and all of us -- Republican or Democrat -- felt the loss.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
I say it's against the rules of decorum, because if someone said it to my face I'd never speak to them again. I have that right in a chat room, too.

Certainly, everyone always has that right. But, in the face of "you happily kill the elderly and the poor", and "you're all traitors", and " you're racist", and "you're communistic thieves", it's going to be a mighty quiet place if we can't find either a way to accept it all as engaged and passionate rhetoric, or mutually tone it down. I complained to you of rhetoric that struck me as being as insulting to me as Club's rhetoric struck you, but I didn't tell you that I would forever avert my eyes from your face were we ever to meet, because, beyond the personal insult that one can quickly take, I knew that you were essentially speaking in the shorthand of modern political debate, and likely didn't actually mean that I was either personally out there killing gramps, or even personally fighting for causes that I knew would result in gramp's death.

Surprisingly, this board has become populated with a number of people who converse intelligently, if passionately, and who deal with the issues more so than with ad hominum attacks on each other. At rare times the discourse goes over the top, but I think it has more to do with strong feelings in the abstract than with any real intent to insult each other. Please keep in mind that one person's Let's Throw Mama From The Train is another's Red Dawn, and let's not be too quick to call mortal insult when we might be doing that ourselves.

It's intention versus perception. Knowing what I know of you, I doubt you were calling me a killer. Knowing what I know of Club, I doubt he was saying you were unaffected by 9/11.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by bilmore
I complained to you of rhetoric that struck me as being as insulting to me as Club's rhetoric struck you, but I didn't tell you that I would forever avert my eyes from your face were we ever to meet, because, beyond the personal insult that one can quickly take, I knew that you were essentially speaking in the shorthand of modern political debate, and likely didn't actually mean that I was either personally out there killing gramps, or even personally fighting for causes that I knew would result in gramp's death.

Still don't see it. My joking about you killing gramps would be in poor taste and beyond the rules of decorum, not mere rhetoric, if, for example, your grandfather had in fact recently been murdered. We really had a 9/11, and it is still a bitter, bitter pill to hear someone say that my emotion about it is not genuine.

I'm suggesting an apology is in order, and your response is, hey, it's an Internet chat board, anything goes?

Please keep in mind that one person's Let's Throw Mama From The Train is another's Red Dawn, and let's not be too quick to call mortal insult when we might be doing that ourselves.

Um, we had posters on the old board who said that the Iraq war was motivated by racism and hatred for Arabs among the administration, etc. As I recall, he was completely marginalized and ostracized. I have his socks on ignore. So don't tell me we have absolute tolerance for personally offensive views.

Anonymity has its place, but if I see a poster abusing anonymity to say jaw-droppingly horrible things to me that I think have even a hint of sincerity, I will do the only thing I can. You can't break someone's fucking teeth in on a chat board --- it's a limitation of the technology.

It's intention versus perception. Knowing what I know of you, I doubt you were calling me a killer.

Bilmore, when did that hypothetical become so real to you? You originally made it up as a reductio ad absurdem of what you perceived to be a liberal thought --- at the time, I thought it was proof of how out of touch you are with intelligent liberals wherever you choose to live --- and now you pin it on me as if I'd ever actually posted such a thing? You're weird.

Knowing what I know of Club, I doubt he was saying you were unaffected by 9/11.

Then he shouldn't fucking joke about it. Capiche?

Go back and read clubby's post, and then contemplate that it brought back all of the rage I felt when I posted this post on the old FB.

"Petty crime." Fucking cocksucker owes 51% of America an apology.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch

Go back and read clubby's post, and then contemplate that it brought back all of the rage I felt when I posted this post on the old FB.

"Petty crime." Fucking cocksucker owes 51% of America an apology.

You're not going to get an apology, just as I won't get an apology for his Hitler comments. (And, by the way, family members of mine were victims of Hitler, and I also had connections, as do most people with our background, to people who died on 9/11).

The boy has had a bad week, probably has something else going on that's contributing to some rage he's expressing here, and that's probably good since it may help from having yet another case of Republican wife beating.*

Time to move on. Cage the rage.



* Please, people, put this one in context and realize it is tongue in cheek. We all know that the only reason there is more wife-beating among Republicans than Democrats is because Republicans do better among the male demographic who are, by definition (except in Verment and here in Massachusetts 180 days from now) the only possible wife-beaters.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
The boy has had a bad week, probably has something else going on that's contributing to some rage he's expressing here, and that's probably good since it may help from having yet another case of Republican wife beating.*

The irony is, both you and AG will likely defend this (given your asterisked explanation) as not being insulting. I'm left to think that insults are only acceptable as long as they're of your chosing.

Want civility? Try it.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by bilmore
The irony is, both you and AG will likely defend this (given your asterisked explanation) as not being insulting. I'm left to think that insults are only acceptable as long as they're of your chosing.

Want civility? Try it.

Bilmore, it was meant to be a reductio ad absurdem that made the point that things go both ways. The asterisk is itself tongue in cheek. **

I was kind of expecting Atticus to get upset with me, since this post is tweaking him on a fairly sensitive subject.

Yes, I was offended by Club's post, and yes, I have gotten over it. I certainly felt free to vent my rage at him. The irony is that I think he was more offended by my condescension to him than I was by his rather objectionable statements.


** This post was equal opportunity offensive. Hopefull, I offended just about everybody.

[sgtclub]

First to GGG, only because it's easier:

You are being absurd. I in no way compared you to Hitler, and I challenge you to pull the post where I did. I was comparing Saddam Hussein to Hitler, but you were too fucking obstinate to pay attention. If I were as sensitive as others on this board, I probably would ask you for an apology. I'm not, you don't owe me one, and frankly I have no hard feelings whatsoever. I hope you don't either.

To AG:

I don't know where this is coming from, but I don't think I did any of the things you've accused me of. I never made a direct attack towards you. I said DEMS, in general, as in the actual politicians and operatives out there. I never told you how to "feel" about 9/11 or that you didn't feel it as deeply as I or anybody else did. You are simply reading this in to my post. What I did say was that the left and right view 9/11 differently, the right viewing it as war, the left more like a crime. Perhaps the word "petty" was a bit gratuitous, but I don't think conceptusally I really said anything that many on the left haven't said before.

If what I said crossed any line, then this is certainly not a board on which I want to post. I'll let others judge, and will gladly leave. But one thing I will not do is apologize. You can kiss my ass you whinly little bitch.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
First to GGG, only because it's easier:

You are being absurd. I in no way compared you to Hitler, and I challenge you to pull the post where I did. I was comparing Saddam Hussein to Hitler, but you were too fucking obstinate to pay attention. If I were as sensitive as others on this board, I probably would ask you for an apology. I'm not, you don't owe me one, and frankly I have no hard feelings whatsoever. I hope you don't either.

I didn't say you compared me to Hitler, but that you suggested I absolved Hitler. Here's your quote, but it has to be read in context to be fully appreciated: "If I understand you right my response is that Hitler didn't pull the trigger or turn on the ovens either. "

No hard feelings, if I hadn't made it clear.

To AG:

I don't know where this is coming from, but I don't think I did any of the things you've accused me of. I never made a direct attack towards you. I said DEMS, in general, as in the actual politicians and operatives out there. I never told you how to "feel" about 9/11 or that you didn't feel it as deeply as I or anybody else did. You are simply reading this in to my post. What I did say was that the left and right view 9/11 differently, the right viewing it as war, the left more like a crime. Perhaps the word "petty" was a bit gratuitous, but I don't think conceptusally I really said anything that many on the left haven't said before.

If what I said crossed any line, then this is certainly not a board on which I want to post. I'll let others judge, and will gladly leave. But one thing I will not do is apologize. You can kiss my ass you whinly little bitch.

Boy, you really know how to sweet talk them, aye?

Small little hint: 9/11 is a pretty sensitive subject for everyone, care is essential. I'm not sure what you think the distinction between war and crime is on such a scale, and the phrase "war crime" does indeed come to my mind. Certainly, not a "petty crime".

By failing to understand the depth of suffering and feeling of all Americans on 9/11, you've pretty much proved the opposite of what you were trying to. You've demonstrated yourself as the heartless one.

Let's move on.

[andViolins]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

By failing to understand the depth of suffering and feeling of all Americans on 9/11, you've pretty much proved the opposite of what you were trying to. You've demonstrated yourself as the heartless one.

Actually, when I read this feeble attempt at talking smack:

But one thing I will not do is apologize. You can kiss my ass you whinly little bitch.

I didn't picture Sarge at heartless, I pictured him more as:





aV

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
I didn't say you compared me to Hitler, but that you suggested I absolved Hitler. Here's your quote, but it has to be read in context to be fully appreciated: "If I understand you right my response is that Hitler didn't pull the trigger or turn on the ovens either. "

No hard feelings, if I hadn't made it clear.

You still don't understand the point, which was a substantive point, that I was trying to make. Your post that I was responding to seemed to suggest that you were drawing a distinction between the murders that should be attributed to SH and those to the regime itself (remember, the discussion was over the 2MM figure). I was only pointing out that under that logic, not all of the murders in germany should be attributed to Hitler. That is it. It was a simple counter point/misunderstanding.

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy Boy, you really know how to sweet talk them, aye?

Small little hint: 9/11 is a pretty sensitive subject for everyone, care is essential. I'm not sure what you think the distinction between war and crime is on such a scale, and the phrase "war crime" does indeed come to my mind. Certainly, not a "petty crime".

Again, just because we deal in sensitive subjects does not mean we should throw out rational thought. The distinction I was trying to make, and again I believe this was a substantive point and not an attack, was that the right views this as war, to which the proper response is return war, while the left views this as a crime, to which the proper response is police style investigation.

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy By failing to understand the depth of suffering and feeling of all Americans on 9/11, you've pretty much proved the opposite of what you were trying to. You've demonstrated yourself as the heartless one.

Let's move on.

Again, I should probably be offended by this, but I'm not. I fully understand and appreciate the depth of suffering and feeling re: 9/11. But please point me to where I was insensitive. My point were substantive. If others choose to read things into what I posted, I can't help that. If my intent was unclear, I believe I am entitled to at least a follow up question before the thought police comes crashing through the door to arrest me. My history and reputation on this board, I believe, is not one of attack. Rather, I think I've nearly always kept it to rational debate on the issues, and in fact, have repeatedly not sunk to the level of others unless I was chided or attacked first. That is the reason I came at you, when you chided me with the "junior/think then read line" (which was funny, to me by the way, but which deserved a response).

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
Unlike every other politician? Bush? Clinton? Or are you just irked that he doesn't hide it better?

Not unlike them at all. But in this case we have a flip flop before the election, so we have the ability to make a decision without waiting 4 years.