Politics: Onward from New Hampshire

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by bilmore
Yeah, and that Shakespeare guy was a dud. If you want truly good wordcrafting, you need to watch reality TV.

It's time to let the reality TV thing go. In the alternative, refrain from directing it at me, as it's not my thing.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Psssst. Sam.

My bees story wasn't really about bees.

I know, you posted while I was writing.

So, your point is: Blix is probably right, short term, but that doesn't mean we did the wrong thing.

Lord, if more folks could respond so reasonably, we could actually wrok thinsg out in this country.

Thanks for the story, Uncle Bilmore!

S_A_M

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
You believe that. Unfortunately, the terrorists do not. See Madrid and the press release from AQ since.

I don't really care what they think. Do you?

I know it's popular in Republican circles to think that anyone who doesn't support the war in Iraq is pro-terrorist, but all I can say to that is "Whiff".

Who did we sacrafice? Put another way, who is with us in Afghanistan and not Iraq? France? Germany? The left continues to believe that we have multilateral support there but not in Iraq. This is just bullshit. In both places, we have minimal support from other countries, with the exception of the UK and more recently Pakistan, mainly because most of our "allies" are EU countries that have no real military due to the fact that we protected their asses for 50 years.

Start with NATO. NATO officially deployed in Afghanistan, including sizable German support. Next, look around for support from neighbors and from other Islamic countries. Then look at levels of commitment from some of our closest friends, like Canada, Mexico and Australia.

If you're going to argue we have minimal support from other countries in Afghanistan, I'm going to have to start pulling out Administration quotes on the subject. Careful what you ask for...

Where was our exit strategy in Eastern Europe in the mid to late 1990s? Whatever happend to the troops will be home by Christmas? Straw argument.

[HINT]You'd be better off using Somalia in this example[/HINT]. The exit strategy in the Balkans was pretty clear -- first, don't send large contingents of ground troops into battle situations, but fight an air war and use ground troops as police, second, turn as much as possible of the policing over to NATO as quickly as possible. You can argue with the exit strategy, but it was there, and part of the much criticized delay before we went in was to set up that exit strategy.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by taxwonk
The story is attributable to George Bernard Shaw. You only think it's apocryphal because for you the price isn't a factor.

Yes, but I've also heard that comment attributed to Disraeli (apparently circulating in his lifetime) and to Churchill. Darn good story, but it may be apocryphal.

S_A_M

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Lord, if more folks could respond so reasonably, we could actually wrok thinsg out in this country.

You can just call me Bilmore. We're pretty informal here.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
Swiffer. The very fact that (you are willing to opine that) it is "one of the great . . . quotes of all time" both makes it less susceptible to "damage" and renders fringey's fucking with it all the more effective and amusing.

Frankly, RP, I don't give a damn.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
These non-mid east groups were shocked to see the level of supplies/explosives the mid-east groups could afford. Of course, much was SA money, but Iraq oil money did go to at least Palistinian groups in large amounts.

Absolutely.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Who did we sacrafice? Put another way, who is with us in Afghanistan and not Iraq? France? Germany? The left continues to believe that we have multilateral support there but not in Iraq. This is just bullshit. In both places, we have minimal support from other countries, with the exception of the UK and more recently Pakistan, mainly because most of our "allies" are EU countries that have no real military due to the fact that we protected their asses for 50 years.

Not true in Afghanistan. The Germans ran the IPF show there for awhile, under the NATO guise, then it went to the Turks (i.e two countries not supporting us in Iraq, but were in Afgahnistan), and I think it has passed to others since, but I forget because we don't pay much attention anymore.

S_A_M

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
It's time to let the reality TV thing go.

New board motto!

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Some things you just don't want to hear:

http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-b...-top-headlines

(One of the Bush campaign's items for sale (a sweater) was made in Burma, a country from which Bush has banned imports.)

ooooo! Was it woven by a 9 year-old chained to a loom? (:lease!: Who's running this campaign, Kathy Lee Gifford?

S_A_M

[bilmore]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
It's time to let the reality TV thing go. In the alternative, refrain from directing it at me, as it's not my thing.

I sort of classify people along a continuum. People willing to mangle, or to see the mangling of, Shaw, go on one side. Coincidently, there's a TV on that side.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

With all the bad news in the world, it's nice to see unmitigated good news, like the fact that Jayson Blair's book is not selling.

[The Larry Davis Experience]

Originally posted by sgtclub
we have minimal support from other countries, with the exception of the UK and more recently Pakistan,

Y'know, I keep having the nagging feeling that 10-20 years down the line people are going to look back on this time and say "I never knew until this day, it was Pakistan all along."

Maybe I've seen Moon over Parador too many times, but no one seems to remember that Pakistan gave material support to the Taliban back when they were practicing their particularly odious style of religious totalitarianism. After 9/11 Musharraf came correct, renounced his ties to the afghan regime and suddenly everything was forgiven.

Since then we:
- suspect OBL and Mullah Omar have been hiding out at least part of the time in Pakistan
- accept Musharraf's excuse that he can't track them down because the folks in that region don't take kindly to government visitors
- accept Musharraf's staunch refusal to base any American troops on his soil
- accept Pakistan's statement that AQ Khan was running his nuclear weapons lemonade stand alone, with no additional government involvement

On top of all that now the DoD is saying that "we are in a broader sense trying to help repair a relationship with Pakistan in the military area that really suffered badly over the last 20 years" by selling them weapons.

I'm just saying that on paper we're eating a great big shitburger from these guys and I'm not even sure who's side they're really on. I don't dismiss that they've been doing a great deal in catching the top al Qaeda people, but who's to say that they aren't just picking out some sacrificial lambs to keep the real heat off their own necks?

I think what gets me and some of my lefty friends IRL the most angry about Bush and Iraq is that they trotted out the "mushroom cloud" scare quotes on a country that didn't have nukes, and now is offering to sell arms to the largest known illegal weapons proliferator in the world. If it ever comes time to deal with Pakistan or some other proliferator, I'm not sure anyone is going to give us the help we need in pressuring them to come correct, for real this time.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by bilmore
And then, no more bees.

I see it's been a while since you've read The Shining. The other shoe will be dropping any minute now, so warm up the Hummer for another emergency room visit --- if the roads are passable.

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by bilmore
I sort of classify people along a continuum. People willing to mangle, or to see the mangling of, Shaw, go on one side. Coincident[all]y, there's a TV on that side.

Great literature is mocked, mangled, and satirized all the time. If the work is truly great, it's not diminished by the process, just as appreciating the satire does not mean one lacks appreciation for the original.

Your classifications are overbroad and lead you to inaccurate conclusions. This reflects more negatively on you than it does on the people whom you are attempting to insult.