Patting the wrists, rolling the eyes.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by bilmore
Right. The correlation between "good school results" and $$/child is not all that high. The most direct correlation comes with "good school results" and "percentage of kids living in two-parent homes".

My understanding is that the biggest correlation is to class size, which does relate (not correlate but relate) to amount you've got to spend.

If you look at some of the studies done by the Annenberg Foundation, you'll find that education gets much, much more effective, no matter what group you are teaching, as class sizes shrink.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by bilmore
Sort of agree, sort of not. I want smart, empathetic people who like to teach kids. I'm not that concerned about the well-educated part. (Obviously, some undergrad degree in their subject, but no need for higher ed for anyone pre-10th-grade.) We pay cops, firemen, nurses, even physician assistants less than $55k. I think you can draw from the same groups.

I haven't looked it up in about three years, but I think the $55k figure is fairly high for most schoold districts for all but the most senior teachers. Around here, they tend to start closer to the 30s

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
If you look at some of the studies done by the Annenberg Foundation, you'll find that education gets much, much more effective, no matter what group you are teaching, as class sizes shrink.

I'd never thought you to be the home schooling type.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I'd never thought you to be the home schooling type.

They say a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
My understanding is that the biggest correlation is to class size, which does relate (not correlate but relate) to amount you've got to spend.

If you look at some of the studies done by the Annenberg Foundation, you'll find that education gets much, much more effective, no matter what group you are teaching, as class sizes shrink.

And my understanding was that the strongest correlation is to overall school size. The so-called "small schools" theory.

Funny. Three posters, three different understandings of even what exists as accepted social theory.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by bilmore
Sort of agree, sort of not. I want smart, empathetic people who like to teach kids. I'm not that concerned about the well-educated part. (Obviously, some undergrad degree in their subject, but no need for higher ed for anyone pre-10th-grade.) We pay cops, firemen, nurses, even physician assistants less than $55k. I think you can draw from the same groups.

Architects of my acquaintence would be very, very happy to get $55K a year. They're fairly highly educated.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
my mother was a teacher with 30 years experience when she retired.

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
It's all free!

My father was a carpenter. Funny, he neglected home repairs. your mom seems to have neglected work at home also.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by bilmore
Sort of agree, sort of not. I want smart, empathetic people who like to teach kids. I'm not that concerned about the well-educated part. (Obviously, some undergrad degree in their subject, but no need for higher ed for anyone pre-10th-grade.) We pay cops, firemen, nurses, even physician assistants less than $55k. I think you can draw from the same groups.

Do firemen have undergraduate degrees? This is not a question of whether they deserve more for putting their lives on the line, but rather of what they can earn elsewhere. I suspect that people with college degrees, particularly with a specialization certificate (as many states require for teaching) average higher than $55k. (As for nurses, $55k is pretty low, at least by SF standards. Of course, $1MM for a glorified toilet stall is cheap here, so....)

By excluding pre-10th grade from the discussion, you exclude some 20-25% of teachers, don't you? Doesn't that skew the number a bit? People with post-college educations tend to earn a good bit more than $55k.

In sum, while there are innumerable problems with public ed and public ed spending, I am not inclined to believe that it's really an issue of teachers being overpaid. I am much more inclined to believe that there are excessive administrative costs, at least in some districts. And certainly know that unfunded mandates are a particular problem.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
In sum, while there are innumerable problems with public ed and public ed spending, I am not inclined to believe that it's really an issue of teachers being overpaid. I am much more inclined to believe that there are excessive administrative costs, at least in some districts. And certainly know that unfunded mandates are a particular problem.

Excessive administrative costs as in padding, or excessive administrative costs as in high compliance costs? "Compliance" encompassing federal, state, local rules/regs, I guess.

ETA to what extent are public school employees protected by the due process stuff w/r/t termination of employment and discipline and stuff? I vaguely remember this from BarBri or something. This seems like a PITA to comply with.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Excessive administrative costs as in padding, or excessive administrative costs as in high compliance costs? "Compliance" encompassing federal, state, local rules/regs, I guess.

ETA to what extent are public school employees protected by the due process stuff w/r/t termination of employment and discipline and stuff? I vaguely remember this from BarBri or something. This seems like a PITA to comply with.

You're trying to engage me in a discussion of benefits, you brazen little hussy. It won't work.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Do firemen have undergraduate degrees? This is not a question of whether they deserve more for putting their lives on the line, but rather of what they can earn elsewhere. I suspect that people with college degrees, particularly with a specialization certificate (as many states require for teaching) average higher than $55k. (As for nurses, $55k is pretty low, at least by SF standards. Of course, $1MM for a glorified toilet stall is cheap here, so....)

Teachers here, in the "rich" urban area, start at around $28k. Outstate, it might be $20k. $55k for a nurse here would be top-of-scale, in a top facility, for a supervisor.

By excluding pre-10th grade from the discussion, you exclude some 20-25% of teachers, don't you? Doesn't that skew the number a bit? People with post-college educations tend to earn a good bit more than $55k.

Maybe I said it wrong - I meant to exclude about 80% with that. K-9 not needing post-grad, 10-12 (in the sciences, at least) needing some grad.

In sum, while there are innumerable problems with public ed and public ed spending, I am not inclined to believe that it's really an issue of teachers being overpaid. I am much more inclined to believe that there are excessive administrative costs, at least in some districts. And certainly know that unfunded mandates are a particular problem.

Note that I used "well-paid", not "overpaid." For my area, at least, (remember that you live in one of the four most expensive places to live in the world) $55k goes a long way, and is a realistic target for the typical college grad. They can buy their large $200k house, and live okay, on that. As for excessive admins, I regularly sleep with someone who is working in the schools (non-admin) who tells me that, in spite of what she used to think, there are no admins sitting around doing nothing - they are running the school, or doing something that is needed to comply with some federal requirement - usually involving preparing compilations and reports and the like.

I think we're simply stuck with the idea that, in an era when teachers realistically expect to be well paid, (meaning, able to support a decent middle-class lifestyle), and where we expect schools to fulfill a lot of functions that have not traditionally been within the mission of education, education is going to take a big chunk of cash.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by bilmore
I think we're simply stuck with the idea that, in an era when teachers realistically expect to be well paid, (meaning, able to support a decent middle-class lifestyle), and where we expect schools to fulfill a lot of functions that have not traditionally been within the mission of education, education is going to take a big chunk of cash.

And on the bottom line we come out the same.

I think there are a lot of things in education that aren't dependent on cash. There are great teachers and mediocre teachers, and which you get is critical, but they may well be paid the same.

But, in today's world, you aren't going to get a quality education without paying a fair bit of money. McClintock aside.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
And on the bottom line we come out the same.

I think there are a lot of things in education that aren't dependent on cash. There are great teachers and mediocre teachers, and which you get is critical, but they may well be paid the same.

But, in today's world, you aren't going to get a quality education without paying a fair bit of money. McClintock aside.

Interesting, seemingly on-point. Boy am I ever glad I have no kids.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/05....ap/index.html

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by bilmore
Teachers here, in the "rich" urban area, start at around $28k. Outstate, it might be $20k. $55k for a nurse here would be top-of-scale, in a top facility, for a supervisor.

If starting salary for teachers is $28k in your area, then I suspect the average salary is not $55k. Ditto the outstate areas. Or does their pay skyrocket at some point?

In general, I would say that teachers receive decent pay, but hardly high pay given the qualifications and demands involved.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Interesting, seemingly on-point.

From everything I see, the Gates Foundation has done very impressive work in schools. Interestingly, they have supported a very broad range of schools and students -- from working with near-basket-case schools to providing scholarships to top students (I recently met a high school senior who received a Gates Fellowship that will pay for his education thru PhD level).

Boy am I ever glad I have no kids.

It's easy to avoid the travails of public schools. You just need to be willing to blow, say, 15k a year.

For f'ing kindergarten.