Politics: A new beginning - Page 28

Shape Shifter · 10-14-2003, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Not categorically, but if you insert "FAR" before "LEFT" and "RIGHT" I think it is generally true. I just found it interesting and, since no one had posted for a while, I thought it might rev things up.

I would propose a parody contest, but something similar is happening on the FB. Besides, Atticus would win, anyway.

sgtclub · 10-14-2003, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
I would propose a parody contest, but something similar is happening on the FB. Besides, Atticus would win, anyway.

The one on the FB is a little too insider for me, but there has to be something we can do to entertain ourselves.

Secret_Agent_Man · 10-14-2003, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Sgtclub believes you should be more specific. Which of the items do you believe are not an objective statement?

Here's one that stuck me as a non-objective, full of crap statement:

"The Left regards America as morally inferior to many European societies with their abolition of the death penalty, cradle-to-grave welfare and religion-free life; and it does not believe that there are distinctive American values worth preserving."

To the contrary, I think that the Left believes that there are many distinctive American values worth preserving. They just have a list that differs in many respects from that of "the Right." __ As represented by the list Prager created. (Did it include individual liberty? } I also doubt that most anyone would say that we are morally inferior to Europe. BTW -- what kind of ignorant baboon is he to think that most European states have "religion-free" lives?

Plus -- I doubt that the Left would criticize the Boy Scouts a being "threat" to the "moral fiber" of our nation. [If I remembered it right.] Even though they are a closed-minded and intolerant organization for excluding gay scouts, gay scoutmasters, and atheists.

Club -- the real tip-off that the list as a whole is not "objective" -- though he may have tried to make it so -- is because it was easy for me to tell which side he considers himself to be on -- even though I'd never heard of him.

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy · 10-14-2003, 06:52 PM

Here's an attempt at a less biased summary:

The Left believes that the first Amendment is critical to the American way of life, and that free speech and respect for diverse viewpoints is part of what makes this country great.

The Right believes that free speech is fine but national security comes first. Free speech also should not be used to say anything unAmerican.

The Left regards America as the foundation of democracy and liberty; and wishes that we were more active in promoting these values abroad.

The Right regards America as a sovereign entity under assault from the rest of the world, and believes that we generally should conduct our foreign policy based on our self-interest rather than our principles.

The Left believes that the pursuit of profit is not the sole purpose of life, and that it is important that we use our resources to benefit everyone, not merely those able to amass control over large institutions.

The Right believes that the pure pursuit of profit will in and of itself result in the greatest social good, and that government has no role to play in assisting individuals in need or in sponsoring, supporting or encouraging activities that benefit the whole of society.

The Left believes multiculturalism should be the ideal for American schools and for government policy.

The Right believes that the Americanization of all its citizens is indispensable to the survival of the United States.

The Left believes that gays should not be discriminated against.

The Right believes that gays should not be protected from discrimination by any public body.

The Left believes that a fundamental role of government is to live up to its ideals. The Right believes that a fundamental role of government is to live up to its ideals. The Left and Right disagree on what those ideals are. For example, the Left believes that government should not support institutions, such as private clubs, that discriminate based on race, gender or sexual preference. The Right believe that government should not support institutions, including hospitals and clinics, that participate in abortions, and that schools that bar army recruiters who will discriminate on the basis of sexual preference should be barred from receiving federal funds.

The Left believes that when schools give out condoms to teenagers as part of an educational program, they are providing safety for sexual activities that are likely to occur anyways.

The Right believes that when schools give out condoms, they are promoting more sex. The right has no interest in sex education in schools; that should be done at home and church.

The Left believes that poverty, racism and psychopathology are among the causes of violent crime, and that both social and individual issues need to be addressed to fight crime.

The Right believes a lack of self-control, lack of religious practice and lack of good values are the primary causes of violent crime, and that only individual issues need to be addressed to fight crime.

The Left and Right, each with certain significant exceptions, believe that war may be an appropriate response at certain times and in certain places. The Left and Right disagree on what those times and places are.

Shape Shifter · 10-14-2003, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
The one on the FB is a little too insider for me, but there has to be something we can do to entertain ourselves.

Okay, but I suggest something a little more ambitious than just changing the words to someone else's ditty. Let's search the web for Goofus and Gallant panels that most adequately match the Left vs. Right descriptions in the original. Bonus points for color!

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy · 10-14-2003, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
The Left believes that sgt club believes this.

The Right does not understand how anyone could not believe it.

And G^3 believes that Sgt. Club is going to miss out on his opportunities with Fringey, who was sounding like she was in the market for his goods yesterday.

(Apologies; this post reflects the fact that I've been spending too much time on the FB lately).

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy · 10-14-2003, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Okay, but I suggest something a little more ambitious than just changing the words to someone else's ditty. Let's search the web for Goofus and Gallant panels that most adequately match the Left vs. Right descriptions in the original. Bonus points for color!

Remember, I'm on the left. I lack ambition.

sgtclub · 10-14-2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Club -- the real tip-off that the list as a whole is not "objective" -- though he may have tried to make it so -- is because it was easy for me to tell which side he considers himself to be on -- even though I'd never heard of him.

I don't necessarily disagree with you; certainly there is some shading going on. But I would ask whether his characterization of the left is wholly untrue (based on your beliefs) or whether you do not fall within the left he is talking about? As I posted above, I believe if you put "FAR" before "LEFT," the statements closer approach reality.

sgtclub · 10-14-2003, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Goofus and Gallant panels that most adequately match the Left vs. Right descriptions in the original. Bonus points for color!

Not sure what you mean here, but sounds intriquing.

sgtclub · 10-14-2003, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
And G^3 believes that Sgt. Club is going to miss out on his opportunities with Fringey, who was sounding like she was in the market for his goods yesterday.

(Apologies; this post reflects the fact that I've been spending too much time on the FB lately).

Doubtful. Everytime I get her not to hate me, I say something that gets, errr, sets her off again.

Shape Shifter · 10-14-2003, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Not sure what you mean here, but sounds intriquing.

Here's a sample Goofus and Gallant:

http://infoweb.newsbank.com/elementa.../hd980339b.htm

They were surpisingly difficult to find. Highlights must protect G&G pretty well. We may have to do the Timbertoes instead.

sgtclub · 10-14-2003, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Here's a sample Goofus and Gallant:

http://infoweb.newsbank.com/elementa.../hd980339b.htm

They were surpisingly difficult to find. Highlights must protect G&G pretty well. We may have to do the Timbertoes instead.

Oh I get it now. That would be very ambituous. I assume Timertoes are similiar?

Greedy,Greedy,Greedy · 10-14-2003, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
I don't necessarily disagree with you; certainly there is some shading going on. But I would ask whether his characterization of the left is wholly untrue (based on your beliefs) or whether you do not fall within the left he is talking about? As I posted above, I believe if you put "FAR" before "LEFT," the statements closer approach reality.

Well, you've heard from all of us on the left that we view these as misrepresenting our positions - how did I do on yours in my summary?

sgtclub · 10-14-2003, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Well, you've heard from all of us on the left that we view these as misrepresenting our positions - how did I do on yours in my summary?

Not a bad first draft. My additions are in ALL CAPS. Brackets represent deletions. Let's take the first one first. We can move on to others later.

I note that these DO NOT necessarily represent all of my views; rather, just my views of the respective beliefs of the left and right.

The Left believes that the first Amendment is critical to the American way of life, and that free speech and respect for diverse viewpoints is part of what makes this country great, EXCEPT IF THE SPEECH IS COMMERICAL SPEECH AND EXCEPT IF THE SPEECH IS POLITICALLY INCORRECT.

The Right believes that free speech is [fine but national security comes first] CRITICAL TO THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE AND IS WHAT MAKES THIS COUNTRY GREAT. HOWEVER, THE FIRST AMENDMENT IS NOT UNLIMITED AND CERTAIN INFRINGEMENTS, AT TIMES, ARE NECESSARY BASED ON THE RESPECTIVE INTERESTS INVOLVED. FOR EXAMPLE, AN ALLEGED TERRORIST SHOULD NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO FREELY COMMUNICATE WITH OTHER TERRORISTS IF DOING SO REASONABLY THREATENS NATIONAL SECURITY. THE RIGHT ALSO PREFERS THAT Free speech not be used to say anything unAmerican, BUT GOVERNMENT SHOULD NOT PROSECUTE THOSE WHO EXERCISE THIS RIGHT, SO LONG AS NATIONAL SECURITY IS NOT REASONABLY THREATENED.

Atticus Grinch · 10-14-2003, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
The Left believes that the first Amendment is critical to the American way of life, and that free speech and respect for diverse viewpoints is part of what makes this country great, EXCEPT IF THE SPEECH IS COMMERICAL SPEECH AND EXCEPT IF THE SPEECH IS POLITICALLY INCORRECT.

Can you give me an example of a mainstream leftist institution seeking to use government power to silence speech on the basis of "politically incorrect"* content since, say, 1993?**

*I still have no idea what this means, but for purposes of your answer please use whatever definition suits you and we'll go from there.

**Not to be taken as a tacit admission that it was prevalent before that time, but I want to avoid a discussion of wrongheaded public university speech codes, which have been roundly criticized from left and right since 1993.