Politics: J'accuse! - Page 288

The Larry Davis Experience · 05-13-2004, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/20802.htm

haven't seen this stuff elsewhere, but its starting to look like the prison was one big ass party, with some real unfortunate Iraquis locked up and caught up in it.

Now that it seems like there's evidence of this not going up the chain, it'll be interesting to see how the Dems play it-

I think you may have linked to the wrong article. Where is this "evidence" you speak of? All I read about is a bunch of pics with sexual content and Lynndie England saying she was ordered to do this stuff by "persons in [her] chain of command."

Maybe I need a Rupert Murdoch decoder ring. Do you know where I can get one of those?

Tyrone Slothrop · 05-13-2004, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
Ty, everyone thought there were WMD in Iraq.

The commander of U.S. forces said, to the President, "we've been looking for Scud missiles and other weapons of mass destruction for ten years and haven't found any yet, so I can't tell you that I know that there are any specific weapons anywhere."

Not Me · 05-13-2004, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Larry Davis Experience
I think you may have linked to the wrong article. Where is this "evidence" you speak of? All I read about is a bunch of pics with sexual content and Lynndie England saying she was ordered to do this stuff by "persons in [her] chain of command."

None of whom she will name.

So, do you believe she was orderd to have sex with these guys in front of prisoners by her superiors? If so, please let me know so I can put you on my "too stupid to respond to" list. TIA!

ltl/fb · 05-13-2004, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
do you believe she was orderd to have sex with these guys in front of prisoners by her superiors? If so, please let me know so I can put you on my "too stupid to respond to" list. TIA!

If that's the payoff, I will say I believe she was ordered to have sex with these guys in front of prisoners by her superiors.

Not Me · 05-13-2004, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
The commander of U.S. forces said, to the President, "we've been looking for Scud missiles and other weapons of mass destruction for ten years and haven't found any yet, so I can't tell you that I know that there are any specific weapons anywhere."

I don't know where you got that quote, so I don't know if it is accurate or not. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, though. Assuming that it is true, all it proves is that the guy couldn't say with 100% certainty that the WMDs were there. And many others believed that the WMDs were there and it was only a matter of time before they were found. But then SH moved them to Syria or destroyed them or they are in Fallujah in places we haven't looked, etc.

The Larry Davis Experience · 05-13-2004, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
None of whom she will name.

So, do you believe she was orderd to have sex with these guys in front of prisoners by her superiors? If so, please let me know so I can put you on my "too stupid to respond to" list. TIA!

I will pay you to put me on that list.

Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) · 05-13-2004, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
If that's the payoff, I will say I believe she was ordered to have sex with these guys in front of prisoners by her superiors.

2.

Not Me · 05-13-2004, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ltl/fb
If that's the payoff, I will say I believe she was ordered to have sex with these guys in front of prisoners by her superiors.

You met the criteria for that list a long time ago. I only continue to respond to you because it amuses me to bat you around like a cat batting around a mouse.

Atticus Grinch · 05-13-2004, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
I don't know where you got that quote

I can't decide whether you're an Evil Genius, or an Evil Idiot. I'm leaning toward a belief in the latter, but hope springs eternal.

Tyrone Slothrop · 05-13-2004, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
I don't know where you got that quote, so I don't know if it is accurate or not. I will give you the benefit of the doubt, though. Assuming that it is true, all it proves is that the guy couldn't say with 100% certainty that the WMDs were there. And many others believed that the WMDs were there and it was only a matter of time before they were found. But then SH moved them to Syria or destroyed them or they are in Fallujah in places we haven't looked, etc.

As my post says, it's from page 173 of Bob Woodward's book.

Franks told Bush they'd been looking for ten years and hadn't found a single WMD, and couldn't say they were there. The next day, Bush went before reporters and said unequivocally that Hussein had WMD. There are a few possibilities:

1. Someone else in the government had better information that was not shared with the commander of U.S. forces in the region, who was planning the invasion. Pretty unlikely.

2. Franks is lying. Also unlikely. Plainly, he's engaged in CYA, but it's hard to believe that he would turn on the President now by saying that he told the President something he didn't say. There were others at the meeting.

3. Woodward is lying. Very unlikely. The quote is attributed directly to Franks, not to an anonymous official. Woodward's whole schtick is letting his sources tell their stories -- this, pretty clearly, is Franks' way of making it clear that the WMD debacle is not the Pentagon's fault.

4. Bush understood they hadn't found WMD, but had some sort of conviction that they would turn up after the invasion. This seems most likely to me. Bush said something that he could not support, in the hope subsequent events would prove him right. Maybe he had defensible motives, but the fact remains that he presented something as a fact that wasn't a fact. If so, that was lying. He misled people about what the government knew in order to lead the country into a war that people would not have supported if he had told the truth.

Atticus Grinch · 05-13-2004, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Attacking the NYT for running a story that someone leaked to it is just a little silly. Washington is a former swamp, and it leaks.

It's "stinkin' thinkin'" like that that will make it possible for Bob Novak and Scooter Libby to get away with violating the Patriot Act and umpteen other federal statutes regarding national security secrets. Why has Libby not yet been indicted? This is the first time the United States government has intentionally exposed an undercover CIA agent, and it happened after 9/11. Where is the outrage?

Tyrone Slothrop · 05-13-2004, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
It's "stinkin' thinkin'" like that that will make it possible for Bob Novak and Scooter Libby to get away with violating the Patriot Act and umpteen other federal statutes regarding national security secrets. Why has Libby not yet been indicted? This is the first time the United States government has intentionally exposed an undercover CIA agent, and it happened after 9/11. Where is the outrage?

I don't really hold Novak all that responsible, but am anxiously awaiting the day when Libby -- or Abrams, or whomever -- gets indicted.

Hank Chinaski · 05-13-2004, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
4. Bush understood they hadn't found WMD, but had some sort of conviction that they would turn up after the invasion. This seems most likely to me.

Yes. All circumstance pointed to the weapons being there. The Un believed, blix beleived it, everyone believed. On the other hand everyone knew none had yet been FOUND. How you get from this to your conspiracy laced conclusions is beyond me.

Tyrone Slothrop · 05-13-2004, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Yes. All circumstance pointed to the weapons being there. The Un believed, blix beleived it, everyone believed. On the other hand everyone knew none had yet been FOUND. How you get from this to your conspiracy laced conclusions is beyond me.

1) When Blix went in and looked where we told him to, and didn't find it, he changed his mind. We didn't listen to him.

2) What "circumstances" do you know of that Tommy Franks didn't know of?

3) What conspiracy-laced conclusions? All I said is that on one day, Franks told Bush they had never found a single WMD, and the next day Bush told the press that Hussein had WMD.

Atticus Grinch · 05-13-2004, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't really hold Novak all that responsible, but am anxiously awaiting the day when Libby -- or Abrams, or whomever -- gets indicted.

Abrams? Having the WH use Abrams for that is like asking the guy with five fouls to get the ball "by any means necessary."

Do the feds have a "three strikes" law? I hope so. It will be fun to watch some future GOP president use the special double-strength pardon and then appoint him to a sub-cabinet position. Again. Like Groundhog Day.

Let's hear how the neocons on the board feel about presidential pardons for lying to Congress, now that the Congress is GOP-controlled. A good thing?