Fashion Board 3-5-04 to 4-6-04

[Diane_Keaton]

Originally posted by dtb
SATC was cool -- it was "fantasy" in many respects, but most definitely connected to reality on certain levels. I'm not saying it was Proust, or anything particularly highbrow, but did resonate with me and many other women in tangible ways ... I don't think it's that we want to BE those girls, but that aspects of each of them are recognizable in us and others we know.

Interesting. I (and my cronies) basically watched SATC just to see how the show depicted NY Gals and we all felt that for the most part it was far far removed from reality. I'm curious what resonated with you. For gals well into their 30's, they seemed so immature to me. They'd talk about "issues" that most girls had already resolved in high school, like, "can women and men just be friends only?" Even the show's racier topics were dispensed with in high school/early college (like you-know-what being chunky. ) Considering you are highly educated, successful, well-grounded, and fabulously thinner and hotter than the four of them, I can't imagine what you feel in common with them.

OK I know it was just a "show" but what was really entertaining was watching how delusional things on the show became sometimes. Take for instance Mr. Big's dumping SJP to marry that other chick. The episode ended dramatically with SJP "discovering" that Mr. Big was simply "scared" of SJP's independence and strong will and that's why he was leaving her. Um...ok. Whatever gets you through the night, but...sorry ladies, but men don't scare off like that. Same goes for the delusional, "You were just too pretty for him; he felt threatened". No matter how fat, bald or old a man is, no woman can ever be "too pretty" for him. This is simply what women say to console each other when a man decides to move on to someone he likes better. Another amusing delusion: the gals (at age 38) saying they "think" they might want to bear children "sometime in the future".

PS - there were I agree some funny moments like Miranda's date bolting red-faced when she tried to be a gamer about his spanking fetish (which he didn't know she knew about). This reminds me of a friend who awoke to find her boyfriend downstairs watching Spartacus with both hands under the blanket and a jar of open Vaseline on the couch with him. She tried to be "cool" and join in the fun but he was mortified and not having any of that. That would have made a good episode - they could have done the whole "Is He Automatically Gay If He Likes Spartacus"?

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by dtb
I agree for the most part -- but your Category 2 is not the category of dislike/hatred of the show that I was referring to. There are dudes (or cats, if you prefer) who fly into a rage when someone suggests that she enjoys the show -- and that just doesn't add up. I don't KNOW that it's because they're threatened, I'm just speculating...

I think you're talking about Category 3, but I see you point. Those men must be threatened or fucked up about something.

Clearly, if people are flying into a rage and screaming about someone else liking a show, they've got issues. And I don't think that they're show or man-related. That's just fucked up behaviour. Using that as a basis for "men are threatened by SATC" is like me saying that all women are crazy, screaming, insane and homeless because of the one women who flashes her engorged clitoris on the Brown and Red Line platforms.

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
RP is still smarting in the corner of the ring from Coltrane's "stupid americans" comment. He's right - Champagne is soda. If you can't drink that straight, you can't drink anything... and dilluting good champagne is sinful.

You mean PJ.

ETA forgive my rare failure to scroll then post. PP already covered this.

And, I don't put any alcohol in my OJ. I like it straight.

[dtb]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
When I bartended, I was always amused by the snobby types who insisted on certain brands of vodka. When there were couples ordering different brands, I liked to switch them. No one ever complained.

You are such a scamp! You rebel, you.


Speaking of which, I have anectodal evidence (the plural form of anectode -- Hi Atticus!!) of the 1000 monkeys on typewriters churning out Shakespeare (or whatever that phrase is).

This morning, I was washing my face and the phone was ringing, and I shouted "Is anyone going to answer the phone?!" and as I heard no response, had to go to the phone with my soapy face. Anyway, it was the NYPD. They asked if someone had called. I said no, but then remembered that my baby had been playing with the phone -- and thought maybe he dialed 911 by happenstance. So I explained that, and the lady on the phone said "OK, fine, please explain that to the officers who will be there in a moment."

Doorbell rings, my son comes to my room asking if I've called the police. So I rinse my face and have to put some underwear on (and a robe), and go to the door to explain what happened. The officers were very nice and we all kind of chuckled.

So the reason I relate this to the 1000 monkeys? Several years ago, my older son did the same thing (luckily, this was upstate, so there's hope that we're not down for having this happen twice!). State trooper came and everything, and asked to look around, even though I told him everything was all right (good practice, probably.)

So when I saw the baby playing with the phone this morning, I thought, "Eh -- I'm not going to worry about it. What are the chances that could happen again?" Apparently, the answer to that question is 100%.

Good times, good times.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by dtb
Nah -- it's more of an eye-rolling when he would see me watching it, along with a snide comment about how dumb the show was. It wasn't dumb. It was reflective of a demographic that a lot of women could relate to. It obviously struck a chord with many women, and I attribute that chord-striking to the relative "reality" that their conversations reflected. (In the wrap-up show, the writers revealed that many of the plot lines and silly happenings were based upon real-life events that had happened to the writers themselves or their friends -- for example, being broken-up with on a post-it.)

So again, I don't know why the visceral reaction to it -- because "it's dumb" doesn't seem like enough of a reason to get apoplectic about its success. Why get so angry about reflecting genuine (albeit "Hollywood-ized") conversations (however banal -- newsflash -- when chicks get together, they often talk about pedestrian subjects in between the regular deep thoughts and discussions about literature and philosophy) among a group of women friends? It just doesn't add up.

You've gone off the deep end. The show is dumb. But that's okay. The chord it strikes with women is a dumb chord. That's okay. People do dumb things in real life too. So it's okay to relate to something dumb you see on tv sometimes.

I watched the show maybe three times. Each time, it was dumb. But I can see why women were drawn to it. It was centered around women and they were in control. And when they weren't, they talked about it at brunch. Women do this. They might not dress head to toe in prada and Manolo, but the concept is the same, which I imagine, is why it was so popular.

And who exactly is getting apoplectic besides SD? Hell, he gets apoplectic over cosmos. I don't think any other guy out there really cares enough about the show or its effects on how women dress and drink at bars to waste their time getting mad over it.

TM

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by dtb
I agree for the most part -- but your Category 2 is not the category of dislike/hatred of the show that I was referring to. There are dudes (or cats, if you prefer) who fly into a rage when someone suggests that she enjoys the show -- and that just doesn't add up. I don't KNOW that it's because they're threatened, I'm just speculating -- but I haven't heard any other logical explanation for why men (and it's only men I've encountered among those with the extreme reaction) get so beside themselves with rage-like disbelief upon learning that someone actually enjoys the show.

Difference of opinion? Sure. An "I think the show is boring/trite/shallow pov?" Fine. Flying into a rage because people like the show? Does not compute.

No rage from my end. I just like deriding what I don't care for. I find the show silly in much the same way I find reality TV ridiculous.

That said, will I stoop to watching both from time to time? Absolutely. I'm nothing if not a hypocrite.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by dtb
...So I rinse my face and have to put some underwear on (and a robe)...

...State trooper...asked to look around...

I can't imagine that these are related at all...

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by mmm3587
I can't imagine that these are related at all...

This is the first post of yours today I was able to read from beginning to end without losing focus. (Fucking cosmo hangover.) Anyway, congratulations.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by mmm3587
2) think the show was kind of interesting and amusing on occasion, and had a few insights, but think that it was completely played out by the end, think that it displayed well stereotypical behaviour of the kind of women I often dislike (Charlotte and Carrie were the ones playing into these stereotypes in the show sometimes) and it got really annoying when every show was "[insert concept here] is like dating and living in New York. (This is me, and most of the men that I know.)

Well said, sir. Better written than most of what's on TV, but that's a low bar.

[dtb]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Maybe I'm just fighting the hypo here, but "eye-rolling" doesn't sound particularly "visceral," "apoplectic," or "angry" to me.

I don't understand why you feel compelled to find some "secret reason" why your husband or anyone else thought the show was dumb. People can honestly disagree; that doesn't mean that he was "threatened" any more than it means that your fondness from the show stemmed from regrets about being married with kids.

I'm not talking about only HIS reaction (or only SD's), but other reactions I've seen/overheard/encountered (including on this board.) Though my husband's snide comments on this show do seem a little extreme and over-the top** for the subject matter. I do suspect he feels a little threatened -- for many reasons -- none of which I'm about to discuss on an internet chat board. I think you'll just need to trust that I know my husband a little better than you do (or not, but I doubt anyone but you will believe it) and that my opinion about this subject as it relates to him is likely more well-informed than yours.

It sounds to me like you can't possibly imagine that a man could feel threatened by this show -- just because you can't imagine yourself feeling threatened. Whatever -- we just disagree. I'm going to drop it now.




**As are many of his reactions to all sorts of different things -- often (but not exclusively) having to do with women-related issues, but I'm not going to go into that here.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by dtb
Speaking of which, I have anectodal evidence (the plural form of anectode -- Hi Atticus!!)

Sweetie, if you are going to use your vocabulary to impress a man, you should try to spell "anecdote" right. Not to mention "anecdotal."


Though I'm beginning to understand why SATC appealed to you so much.

[mmm3587]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
This is the first post of yours today I was able to read from beginning to end without losing focus. (Fucking cosmo hangover.) Anyway, congratulations.

Talk about freshly-showeredwomen naked except for a tiny silk robe and a small thong will always enhance the direction of my, uh, writing.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by mmm3587
Same for gin. It's all juniper, assholes!

Come on, I can see not being able to tell Ketel One from Grey Goose after it's killed with tonic, but are you telling me you put rail vodka in place of GG and no one noticed? Or did you just switch within quality ranges?

If someone orders a Stoli, his date's not ordering a rail drink. Usually I'd switch Stoli and Absolut. So far as I could tell, no one would notice.

[dtb]

Originally posted by mmm3587
Using that as a basis for "men are threatened by SATC" is like me saying that all women are crazy, screaming, insane and homeless because of the one women who flashes her engorged clitoris on the Brown and Red Line platforms.

Well, I don't think it's that big a leap (my point, not yours.) And I'd also like to send you out a special thank you for that particularly graphic mental image. Now I can skip lunch and save myself $7!

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by dtb
It sounds to me like you can't possibly imagine that a man could feel threatened by this show -- just because you can't imagine yourself feeling threatened.

Just how many times do I need to say "I'm sure some men are threatened by women being comfortable with sex, and with talking about sex" before that sinks in? Given that I said that, at least twice, why would you make the comment you made above?

You're right -- we should drop it. You are incapable of discussing anything with me -- possibly with men in general? -- without making these broad, patently wrong conclusions.

Are you sure you're not Sebby's female sock?