Patting the wrists, rolling the eyes.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I think it is hardwired into us to a degree, not to do the things that are bad for society as a whole. And the ability to comprehend (or inability to completely ignore/forget) the whole kinda Kantian* "if everyone did it, my life would suck, so I shouldn't do it" thing is also hardwired in, to a degree. Why do pack animals cooperate?

*oooh, check it out, I put in a PHILOSOPHER name, I am soooo fucking cool

Pack animals have been bred to cooperate. Although the mule clearly has not been perfected yet.

I just never have had anyone (including any of the so called famous philosophers) explain to me why someone should follow the golden rule or other commonly accepted moral rules absent a higher power (or absent a universal moral code). What rational should you give someone to convince them to help starving people in bangaladesh? It is in your self interest? Any attempt at proving that is a tortured rationalization. The only other thing to do is tell them "it is the right thing to do". But absent a universal code of ethics the term "right thing to do" is a meaningless term.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Spanky
Pack animals have been bred to cooperate. Although the mule clearly has not been perfected yet.

What the fuck are you talking about, you freak? I mean like wolves.

Possible explanation for starving kids in Bangladesh: See "help some of the weak young survive," above. Obviously, this would have evolved to meet a local need, but the impulse remains and applies, to varying degrees, to anything with big eyes that looks hungry.

I am starting to think you are some kind of troll sock. You can't be this dense. Or, you really are partially club, and today is club's turn.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Spanky
Pack animals have been bred to cooperate. Although the mule clearly has not been perfected yet.

I just never have had anyone (including any of the so called famous philosophers) explain to me why someone should follow the golden rule or other commonly accepted moral rules absent a higher power (or absent a universal moral code). What rational should you give someone to convince them to help starving people in bangaladesh? It is in your self interest? Any attempt at proving that is a tortured rationalization. The only other thing to do is tell them "it is the right thing to do". But absent a universal code of ethics the term "right thing to do" is a meaningless term.

Did morality and ethics exist before the Old Testament?

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Spanky
Pack animals have been bred to cooperate.

Yeah? Explain Brother Bear.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Yeah? Explain Brother Bear.

You have bears tote your stuff around? This explains a lot.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I think it is hardwired into us to a degree, not to do the things that are bad for society as a whole. And the ability to comprehend (or inability to completely ignore/forget) the whole kinda Kantian* "if everyone did it, my life would suck, so I shouldn't do it" thing is also hardwired in, to a degree. Why do pack animals cooperate?

*oooh, check it out, I put in a PHILOSOPHER name, I am soooo fucking cool

If by hardwired you mean culturally, than I agree with you. Otherwise, I take the view that morality is taught. I don't think human's instinctively know the difference between right and wrong, although I do believe that there is an objective standard for right and wrong.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I am starting to think you are some kind of troll sock. You can't be this dense. Or, you really are partially club, and today is club's turn.

When I make partner, you're blackballed.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by sgtclub
When I make partner,

Ah, a man of faith, I see.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
If by hardwired you mean culturally, than I agree with you. Otherwise, I take the view that morality is taught. I don't think human's instinctively know the difference between right and wrong, although I do believe that there is an objective standard for right and wrong.

I think humans instinctively want, everything else being equal, to help other humans and even animals. I think it's reinforced and channeled by teaching/society/culture, but I think it is instinctive.

How is this politics?

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
When I make partner, you're blackballed.

I am more than happy to pull the $2 million (ish) in billings I control. No problem.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Spanky
OK - but is the source of your personal ethics and morality come from this creator or from yourself?

From myself. I don't know why, but for some unexplained reason, doing awful things to people just doesn't make me feel good. Call me crazy.

Its evolutionary. Being a rational, sensible person, I understand that its better for all of us to try to get along. It benefits my survival to be tolerant of others. Religion, on the other hand, as its practiced by fundamentalists, eschews tolerance in favor of obedience. In that regard, its a great guidepost...

If you don't have enough goddamned innate common sense to know on your own that you should be decent to your fellow man.

Everything St. Francis or Jesus taught could be deduced from a common sense analysis of the world around you.

None of this "wisdom" you credit to a higher power came from a higher power. Its cobbled together fables which people used over centuries to provide a laundry list of dos and don'ts for people who wouldn't know how to act on their own. Religion is offensive because it assumes man is too stupid to behave on his own accord.

Oh, its fucking silliness. I'd like to believe there was a religion that had the answer. Its hardly comforting to deal with the fact that you probably aren't going anywhere when you die, but its just impossible for me to lie to myslef and buy into your kind's horseshit fantasies. If there's a God, I'll know when I'm dead, and [s]he'll probably treat me well based on my deeds. But I can't imagine God could give a rat's ass about whether I believe in any particular religion. You know its a farce. You just don't want to admit it because that makes morality seem all that more overwhelming. Thats the handle on all the super-religious - they think their zeal can overcome their doubts. But it never really works, does it?

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I think humans instinctively want, everything else being equal, to help other humans and even animals. I think it's reinforced and channeled by teaching/society/culture, but I think it is instinctive.

Sure, because they want to go to heaven.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Spanky
Pack animals have been bred to cooperate. Although the mule clearly has not been perfected yet.

I just never have had anyone (including any of the so called famous philosophers) explain to me why someone should follow the golden rule or other commonly accepted moral rules absent a higher power (or absent a universal moral code). What rational should you give someone to convince them to help starving people in bangaladesh? It is in your self interest? Any attempt at proving that is a tortured rationalization. The only other thing to do is tell them "it is the right thing to do". But absent a universal code of ethics the term "right thing to do" is a meaningless term.

If no one internalizes the moral code, it's not a very useful thing.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Sure, because they want to go to heaven.

Avoid hell, you mean.

I think Sebby, who is close to animal status, proves my point. "doing awful things to people just doesn't make me feel good"

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I am more than happy to pull the $2 million (ish) in billings I control. No problem.

No problem. That's dilutive anyway.