Meet your new thread, same as the old thread.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
Okay. Tell us how Fox desensitizes people concerning violence/bombings. Please don't say it's because they use the word "homicide bomber". Because if that's the case, you are pretty easily desensitized.

I don't know desensitizing people is such a bad thing. Giving us all thicker skins isn't a bad idea.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
TV news, and Fox in particular, is superficial. Fox -- and I don't think they're unique in this -- sensationalizes violence, particularly violence committed by strangers, without providing context. (Local TV news often does this too, with local crime stories.) Context concerning causes helps to understand why these things occur. Context concerning their impact -- like who the victims are -- helps explain their impact. The superficiality of the coverage has the effect of desensitizing people to what the story means. It just becomes a number of inexplicable, random deaths.

The exception to this general phenomenom is when a story breaks through to saturation coverage. Natalie Holloway (or whatever her name was), 9/11, the OJ case -- these stories are overreported, not underreported, leading to a whole different set of issues.

I used to understand why the Pix diane posted from beslam, or the WTC/911 pix got deleted, but now I don't see how it wasn't hypocritical

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Sen. Mitch McConnell (R. -- Ky.), supporting the troops:

• Nobody is happy about losing lives but remember these are not draftees, these are full-time professional soldiers.

link

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I used to understand why the Pix diane posted from beslam, or the WTC/911 pix got deleted, but now I don't see how it wasn't hypocritical

Maybe you can work with a TV in your office with Fox News on all day, but most of us can't, for one reason or another.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Sen. Mitch McConnell (R. -- Ky.), supporting the troops:

• Nobody is happy about losing lives but remember these are not draftees, these are full-time professional soldiers.

link

Mitch McConnell & Steve Forbes - Separated at birth? Do a Google image search.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

David Frum:

• Sorry to dissent from my colleagues on the Corner.... To be blunt, Romney is saying:
  
  It is legitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the son of God?"
  
  But it is illegitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the brother of Lucifer?"
  
  It is hard for me to see a principled difference between these two questions, and I think on reflection that the audiences to whom Romney is trying to appeal will also fail to see such a difference...

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
David Frum:

• Sorry to dissent from my colleagues on the Corner.... To be blunt, Romney is saying:
  
  It is legitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the son of God?"
  
  But it is illegitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the brother of Lucifer?"
  
  It is hard for me to see a principled difference between these two questions, and I think on reflection that the audiences to whom Romney is trying to appeal will also fail to see such a difference...

Romney's speech was a new low in our race toward becoming the political laughingstock of the developed world. The only silver lining in the thing was knowing it was all such a huge, cynical lie. And that he won't be getting elected.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Romney's speech was a new low in our race toward becoming the political laughingstock of the developed world.

More on another part of Romney's speech from Alex Massie, who is a Scot:

• More Romney, I'm afraid. But this is less about him than it concerns a general American trend. Daniel Larison has already touched on how Romney seems to share Fred Thompson's odd belief in the uniquely generous nature of American military sacrifice. This reminds me that I'd meant to comment upon this passage from Romney's speech:
  
  "Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence of government. No people in the history of the world have sacrificed as much for liberty. The lives of hundreds of thousands of America's sons and daughters were laid down during the last century to preserve freedom, for us and for freedom loving people throughout the world. America took nothing from that Century's terrible wars – no land from Germany or Japan or Korea; no treasure; no oath of fealty."
  
  Oh please. To listen to this you might think the United States' sole concern was that the people of Europe and, for that matter, south-east asia, had a proper supply of apple pie. No war aims here! Not so much as a single strategic objective!
  
  To say this is poppycock does not detract for a second from the heroism and sacrifice of American soldiers on Omaha Beach or the sands of Iwo Jima (or for that matter of the workers in the factories who made trucks for Uncle Joe).
  
  America took nothing from the Second World War, unless you consider being the world's most powerful - and richest - country nothing at all. As collateral benefits go you'd have to rank these pretty highly.
  
  Except of course it wasn't a collateral benefit. I know that Americans are wedded to this view of their involvement in WW2 (precipitated of course by Japan and Germany) as a selfless, reluctant act. But if this story has any truth it's only part of the matter. Right from the beginning there were other fish being fried.
  
  The Americans were shaping their notion of the post-war environment even before they entered the conflict. The ennobling element of Britain's wartime story is not so much the defiant days when she stood alone (though those, natch, reflect well upon us) but the fact that Britain sacrificed an Empire and, consequently, much of its power to help ensure that the Americans could be persuaded into the war. Victory was impossible without America; but more than blood - or treasure for that matter - was needed to pay the price the Americans demanded. So be it.
  
  For instance, the American view of post-war trade would be, as Cordell Hull put it, "a knife to open that oyster shell, the Empire". At their first meeting, at Placentia Bay in August 1941, Roosevelt viewed Churchill as "A real old Tory, of the old school" but predicted that there'd be plenty of talk about India "And Burma. And Java. And Indo-China. And Indonesia. And all the African colonies. And Egypt and Palestine. We'll talk about 'em all."
  
  The destruction of the British Empire was every bit as much an American war aim as was the defeat of Hitlerism, even if, for obvious reasons, it was rarely explained as such in public.
  
  All of which was, of course, fair enough. The United States can hardly be faulted for acting in its own interest. And its own interest was a post-war world in which it was Top Dog. If that meant doing its best to shut Britain out then so be it. As I say, the only thing wrong with this is pretending that it didn't happen.
  
  (I should perhaps point out that in the grander scheme of things, the American view of unfettered free trade (though good for American industry) was probably preferable to the British hankering for Imperial Preference. But that's not the point really.)
  
  Nor does it - to repeat - detract from the valiant service of American troops to point out that the United states has indeed demanded fealty and, for that matter, sovereignty. What else are US bases around the world if not the outposts of Empire?
  
  The US military guarantee to defend western Europe was both noble and self-serving. There isn't necessarily a contradiction between the two. In return for protection against the Soviets western Europe endorsed an American view of the world and its institutions. Still, in important respects NATO is an "alliance" in name only. Until recently Europe's low defence spending suited America (and perhaps still does): after all, if European countries lack the ability to project force then they are al the more dependent upon the US. That's a high-ranking card to have in your hand.
  
  Still, it's not unreasonable to remember that the American guarantee of liberty was a guarantee that would only be observed on American terms. To take but one example, the Italian elections of 1948 could not be "free and fair" because they carried the risk that the Communists might do well. Now Italian politics might have been corrupted anyway, but the US-backed 40 year installation of the Christian Democrats certainly helped pollute the Italian body politic. You may argue that this was better than the alternative but that doesn't mean you need pretend that all this was perfect or that it somehow matched American rhetoric. Hypocrisy is, of course, an old imperial vice. (Or, if you prefer, virtue).
  
  Just because th US involvement in Europe (and elsewhere) has been, overall, beneficial doesn't mean we shouldn't pretend that drawbacks and unfortunate consequences don't exist. On the risky assumption that we can be grown-up about these things there's little need for pretense or humbug.
  
  Equally, Romney's "no fealty" line is complete hokum. Perhaps he has forgotten that much of the fury directed towards Jacques Chirac in the lead-up to the Iraq War was predicated upon the idea that, after all we did for France it's outrageous that they don't support us now that we ask them to 60 years later. That sounds like a demand for fealty to me.
  
  So sure, America took nothing from the last century's terrible wars. Nothing, that is, except the American Century itself.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
David Frum:

• Sorry to dissent from my colleagues on the Corner.... To be blunt, Romney is saying:
  
  It is legitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the son of God?"
  
  But it is illegitimate to ask a candidate, "Is Jesus the brother of Lucifer?"
  
  It is hard for me to see a principled difference between these two questions, and I think on reflection that the audiences to whom Romney is trying to appeal will also fail to see such a difference...

once the Islamists take over, you and your bloggers are really going to be fucked.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
More on another part of Romney's speech from Alex Massie, who is a Scot:

• More Romney, I'm afraid. But this is less about him than it concerns a general American trend. Daniel Larison has already touched on how Romney seems to share Fred Thompson's odd belief in the uniquely generous nature of American military sacrifice. This reminds me that I'd meant to comment upon this passage from Romney's speech:
  
  "Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence of government. No people in the history of the world have sacrificed as much for liberty. The lives of hundreds of thousands of America's sons and daughters were laid down during the last century to preserve freedom, for us and for freedom loving people throughout the world. America took nothing from that Century's terrible wars – no land from Germany or Japan or Korea; no treasure; no oath of fealty."
  
  Oh please. To listen to this you might think the United States' sole concern was that the people of Europe and, for that matter, south-east asia, had a proper supply of apple pie. No war aims here! Not so much as a single strategic objective!
  
  To say this is poppycock does not detract for a second from the heroism and sacrifice of American soldiers on Omaha Beach or the sands of Iwo Jima (or for that matter of the workers in the factories who made trucks for Uncle Joe).
  
  America took nothing from the Second World War, unless you consider being the world's most powerful - and richest - country nothing at all. As collateral benefits go you'd have to rank these pretty highly.
  
  Except of course it wasn't a collateral benefit. I know that Americans are wedded to this view of their involvement in WW2 (precipitated of course by Japan and Germany) as a selfless, reluctant act. But if this story has any truth it's only part of the matter. Right from the beginning there were other fish being fried.
  
  The Americans were shaping their notion of the post-war environment even before they entered the conflict. The ennobling element of Britain's wartime story is not so much the defiant days when she stood alone (though those, natch, reflect well upon us) but the fact that Britain sacrificed an Empire and, consequently, much of its power to help ensure that the Americans could be persuaded into the war. Victory was impossible without America; but more than blood - or treasure for that matter - was needed to pay the price the Americans demanded. So be it.
  
  For instance, the American view of post-war trade would be, as Cordell Hull put it, "a knife to open that oyster shell, the Empire". At their first meeting, at Placentia Bay in August 1941, Roosevelt viewed Churchill as "A real old Tory, of the old school" but predicted that there'd be plenty of talk about India "And Burma. And Java. And Indo-China. And Indonesia. And all the African colonies. And Egypt and Palestine. We'll talk about 'em all."
  
  The destruction of the British Empire was every bit as much an American war aim as was the defeat of Hitlerism, even if, for obvious reasons, it was rarely explained as such in public.
  
  All of which was, of course, fair enough. The United States can hardly be faulted for acting in its own interest. And its own interest was a post-war world in which it was Top Dog. If that meant doing its best to shut Britain out then so be it. As I say, the only thing wrong with this is pretending that it didn't happen.
  
  (I should perhaps point out that in the grander scheme of things, the American view of unfettered free trade (though good for American industry) was probably preferable to the British hankering for Imperial Preference. But that's not the point really.)
  
  Nor does it - to repeat - detract from the valiant service of American troops to point out that the United states has indeed demanded fealty and, for that matter, sovereignty. What else are US bases around the world if not the outposts of Empire?
  
  The US military guarantee to defend western Europe was both noble and self-serving. There isn't necessarily a contradiction between the two. In return for protection against the Soviets western Europe endorsed an American view of the world and its institutions. Still, in important respects NATO is an "alliance" in name only. Until recently Europe's low defence spending suited America (and perhaps still does): after all, if European countries lack the ability to project force then they are al the more dependent upon the US. That's a high-ranking card to have in your hand.
  
  Still, it's not unreasonable to remember that the American guarantee of liberty was a guarantee that would only be observed on American terms. To take but one example, the Italian elections of 1948 could not be "free and fair" because they carried the risk that the Communists might do well. Now Italian politics might have been corrupted anyway, but the US-backed 40 year installation of the Christian Democrats certainly helped pollute the Italian body politic. You may argue that this was better than the alternative but that doesn't mean you need pretend that all this was perfect or that it somehow matched American rhetoric. Hypocrisy is, of course, an old imperial vice. (Or, if you prefer, virtue).
  
  Just because th US involvement in Europe (and elsewhere) has been, overall, beneficial doesn't mean we shouldn't pretend that drawbacks and unfortunate consequences don't exist. On the risky assumption that we can be grown-up about these things there's little need for pretense or humbug.
  
  Equally, Romney's "no fealty" line is complete hokum. Perhaps he has forgotten that much of the fury directed towards Jacques Chirac in the lead-up to the Iraq War was predicated upon the idea that, after all we did for France it's outrageous that they don't support us now that we ask them to 60 years later. That sounds like a demand for fealty to me.
  
  So sure, America took nothing from the last century's terrible wars. Nothing, that is, except the American Century itself.

Good god.

This is such typical Elitist Euro claptrap, it almost borders on parody.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Sen. Mitch McConnell (R. -- Ky.), supporting the troops:

• Nobody is happy about losing lives but remember these are not draftees, these are full-time professional soldiers.

link

did he say anything right before and right after that put it in context at all?

and what he is saying is a valid response to the Ds arguments painting the troops as innocents being thrown to the slaughter. They knew there is a war and they enlisted, and the arguments about Bush callously sending them off ignore that knowledge.

That isn't to say it is not sad when they die. Perhaps it is more sad. But McConnell was answering the Ds little arguments.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good god.

This is such typical Elitist Euro claptrap, it almost borders on parody.

2.

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good god.

This is such typical Elitist Euro claptrap, it almost borders on parody.

You really think we got "nothing" (to quote Romney) out of winning WWII?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Good god.

This is such typical Elitist Euro claptrap, it almost borders on parody.

I agree the piece is a bit pompous, but the point isn't overreaching. We clearly did take an awful lot from an awful lot of nations after WWII. The USSR and US basically started splitting up the world.

His point is accurate. Romney overreached. But his whole speech was a ludicrous, overreaching and offensive begging exercise for the votes of the most regressive elements of our society.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I agree the piece is a bit pompous, but the point isn't overreaching. We clearly did take an awful lot from an awful lot of nations after WWII.

To be more concrete, when we gave Great Britain 50 Lend-Lease destroyers in 1940 (their "darkest hour"), we extracted from them the rights to military bases on British-controlled soil all over the place.