Is this torture?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
This is the CIA's definition of waterboarding:

• "The prisoner is bound to an inclined board, feet raised and head slightly below the feet. Cellophane is wrapped over the prisoner's face and water is poured over him. Unavoidably, the gag reflex kicks in and a terrifying fear of drowning leads to almost instant pleas to bring the treatment to a halt."

link

Is this torture? Vote in the poll, and add comments and explanation if you like.

Not in the least. Where's the physical harm? So the guy gets the shit scared out of him. Caveat fucking emptor. Perhaps he'll think twice before he joins another jihadist movement.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Not in the least. Where's the physical harm? So the guy gets the shit scared out of him. Caveat fucking emptor. Perhaps he'll think twice before he joins another jihadist movement.

I can think of numerous things that don't cause lasting physical harm that would probably be more widely considered torture. We could drill teeth. As long as we fill them up, where's the harm? Or we could strategically apply electrical shocks to some of the body's more sensitive areas. As long as there's no lasting harm, what's the big deal?

The point of torture is not to harm the subject, but to produce pain and fear. As someone who almost drowned (my ankle got tangled up in a ski rope and the driver of the boat didn't know I was back there), I can assure you that the feeling of having water forced into your nose and mouth while being unable to breath is not merely uncomfortable, it is incredibly painful, not comparable in any way to simply holding your breath underwater for as long as you can (which is what I believe many of you imagine the feeling to be). The panic it induces is overwhelming. Given my choice, I'd rather have my fingernails pulled or my teeth drilled, and yet people regard these practices as clearly torture. Given the objectives of torture and the reasons for its prohibition, I don't see the "lasting physical harm" distinction.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by LessinSF
I don't get this debate. It's a trick. They don't lose fingernails. They aren't starved. They aren't deprived of sleep for days. They are tricked into thinking they are drowning, but they aren't. Kind of like when the police tell a suspect that their accomplice has ratted them out, so they turn on the guy. Ha ha, gotcha.

I'm pretty sure that when the police do that, they don't cut off your breathing in the process. Could be wrong, though.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I'm pretty sure that when the police do that, they don't cut off your breathing in the process. Could be wrong, though.

I was once told by the Federales that my companions had told him that all the stuff in the truck was mine. It cut my breathing off almost entirely for several minutes.

(He was lying.)

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by bilmore
I was once told by the Federales that my companions had told him that all the stuff in the truck was mine. It cut my breathing off almost entirely for several minutes.

(He was lying.)

When you found out they were lying, did you bestow flowers and sweets upon the Federales?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
When you found out they were lying, did you bestow flowers and sweets upon the Federales?

Well, we did bestow some commodities upon them, but certainly not quite in the grateful spirit that sweets and flowers imply.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Not in the least. Where's the physical harm? So the guy gets the shit scared out of him. Caveat fucking emptor. Perhaps he'll think twice before he joins another jihadist movement.

Schools ought to implement waterboarding.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Schools ought to implement waterboarding.

I agree, but I suspect that the teachers' contracts will protect them from it.

[LessinSF]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
The point of torture is not to harm the subject, but to produce pain and fear. As someone who almost drowned (my ankle got tangled up in a ski rope and the driver of the boat didn't know I was back there), I can assure you that the feeling of having water forced into your nose and mouth while being unable to breath is not merely uncomfortable, it is incredibly painful, not comparable in any way to simply holding your breath underwater for as long as you can (which is what I believe many of you imagine the feeling to be). The panic it induces is overwhelming. Given my choice, I'd rather have my fingernails pulled or my teeth drilled, and yet people regard these practices as clearly torture. Given the objectives of torture and the reasons for its prohibition, I don't see the "lasting physical harm" distinction.

The problem with your argument is that someone who is waterboarded does not have water "forced into [their] nose and mouth while being unable to breath."

As for fear, if it is equivocated with torture, then every standard police/DA technique designed to say, in essence, "Confess or you will spend more time in prison" is torture, because they are all based on the fear of doing (more) time i.e. plea bargaining = torture.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by LessinSF
The problem with your argument is that someone who is waterboarded does not have water "forced into [their] nose and mouth while being unable to breath."

http://www.current.tv/video/?id=13462474

Sure looks like torture to me.

As for fear, if it is equivocated with torture, then every standard police/DA technique designed to say, in essence, "Confess or you will spend more time in prison" is torture, because they are all based on the fear of doing (more) time i.e. plea bargaining = torture.

There is a difference between fear of prison time and fear of imminent death.

[LessinSF]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
There is a difference between fear of prison time and fear of imminent death.

Yes, many Muslim extremists would prefer the latter.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by LessinSF
Yes, many Muslim extremists would prefer the latter.

Indeed, soap on a rope is not an option for them.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by LessinSF
Yes, many Muslim extremists would prefer the latter.

Bonnie and Clyde were Muslim extremists.

[LessinSF]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Bonnie and Clyde were Muslim extremists.

Indeed. Note the hair coverings:

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by LessinSF
Indeed. Note the hair coverings:

this doesn't seem PC....I hope Ty doesn't delete.....