A Forum for Grinches and Ho-Ho-Hoes - Page 304

bilmore · 03-09-2005, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by taxwonk
However, in either the totalitarian regimes or the communist regimes, the wealth was all enjoyed by the ruling elite, and the rest of the nation lived in abject poverty.

Kerry told me that we're that way, too.

Tyrone Slothrop · 03-09-2005, 01:33 PM

Apparently the Hezbollah rally in Beirut drew 500,000 people -- one-eighth of the country's population. Wow.

Sexual Harassment Panda · 03-09-2005, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Apparently the Hezbollah rally in Beirut drew 500,000 people -- one-eighth of the country's population. Wow.

The police dept. estimate was 8,000.

Spanky · 03-09-2005, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
Where do you get this stuff? The Heritage Foundation has rated Hong Kong the freest economy every year since 1995. Look it up.

What you failed to mention was that Singapore is number two. The Economist and the Far Eastern Economic Review keep putting Singapore at the top, but Singapre and Hong Kong are almost the top two. But that still reinforced my argument. Before the communist takeover (and the introduction of Socialism) Hong Kong, Taiwan and the rest of china had the same per capita income. Before China introduced its economic reforms the per capita income in all of China was $500 a year. At that same time, the freest economy - Hong Kong has a percapita income of $7,000 per year, and Taiwan, a little less free but a great deal more free than China, has a per capital income of $5,000 per year. Now that the rest of China has open up its economy, China is rapidbly catching up to these countries.

03-09-2005, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
Just Manhattan. It's not really a city - it's a borough.

I look forward to the day when the five boroughs* secede to set up a Singapore-style city-state, complete with caning. Especially caning. We've been subsidizing the rest of this fat-ass country for far too long.**

* Staten Island will have to do some shaping up first.

**This is where you pour a little of your 40 onto the ground for Pat Moynihan.

Tyrone Slothrop · 03-09-2005, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
What you failed to mention was that Singapore is number two. The Economist and the Far Eastern Economic Review keep putting Singapore at the top, but Singapre and Hong Kong are almost the top two. But that still reinforced my argument. Before the communist takeover (and the introduction of Socialism) Hong Kong, Taiwan and the rest of china had the same per capita income. Before China introduced its economic reforms the per capita income in all of China was $500 a year. At that same time, the freest economy - Hong Kong has a percapita income of $7,000 per year, and Taiwan, a little less free but a great deal more free than China, has a per capital income of $5,000 per year. Now that the rest of China has open up its economy, China is rapidbly catching up to these countries.

I thought your thesis was that right-wing dictatorships inevitably turn into democracies as they grow richer, while Communists prevent economic growth and will not relinquish power. But in Singapore, you have a dictator continuing to preside over a wealthy, growing economy. And in China, you have Communists presiding over rapid economic growth.

Spanky · 03-09-2005, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Given that the People's Action Party controls nearly every seat in Parliament, the term "democracy" may not be wholly applicable.

Yes but they get those seats in a free election. I think it was about seven years ago when the PAP's candidate for Prime Minister lost three seats, he had to resign in embarrassment. I am not claiming that Singapore is the best with civil liberties, I wouldn't want to live there, but the government has the overwhelming support of the people. There are many negative things you can say about Singapore, but it is prosperous, has a free economy and has free elections.

03-09-2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
but the government has the overwhelming support of the people.

Hear hear!

Tyrone Slothrop · 03-09-2005, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
Yes but they get those seats in a free election. I think it was about seven years ago when the PAP's candidate for Prime Minister lost three seats, he had to resign in embarrassment. I am not claiming that Singapore is the best with civil liberties, I wouldn't want to live there, but the government has the overwhelming support of the people. There are many negative things you can say about Singapore, but it is prosperous, has a free economy and has free elections.

Why do you think elections in Singapore are more "free" than those in China?

eta:

Here's a brief description of some of the problems there:

Singapore's government has decided that it likes the idea of a speakers' corner. But it will have free speech Singapore style: "We will let people say whatever they like to say," explained Home Affairs Minister, Mr Wong Kan Seng, "except for things that will offend the law, or offend religious or racial sensibilities, or anything that is libelous. Then, of course, they will be subject to lawsuits by the people whom they libel."

The most vigilant users of the libel law in Singapore are its political leaders. Singapore's ruling party has been spectacularly successful in persecuting political opponents simply by the brisk use of libel suits, unerringly decided in favour of the government on punitive terms by a deeply sympathetic judiciary. And before you take your soapbox to Singapore you should know of a few other stipulations. You'll need a licence. The police may record your views. And you are liable to detention without trial if you are deemed a menace to public security.

In this way, Singapore will acquire yet another of the emblems of a libel democracy without its substance. Indeed, it has all the mechanisms of a democracy without the libel values which give them meaning.

So the rich city-state allows the people to vote - democracy - but it is illiberal - it persecutes the opposition, muzzles the media and threatens to abandon public spending in any district that dares vote for alternative parties. ... Singapore's Lee Kuan Yew pioneered the illiberal democracy....

Australian Financial Review

ltl/fb · 03-09-2005, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky
What you failed to mention was that Singapore is number two.

He didn't fail to mention it, he just pointed out that HK is #1. Nice spin on someone correcting your prounouncements from on high, though.

If Singaporeans (?) have few civil liberties, what makes you so sure their elections are truly free? Can opposition groups run viable campaigns?

SlaveNoMore · 03-09-2005, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Tyrone Slothrop
you have a dictator continuing to preside over a wealthy, growing economy.

Kerry told me were that way too. Except for the wealthy, growing part.

03-09-2005, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
There's no real moral quandry, just partisanship dressed as moral argument.

By the way, if this is not made the next board motto I will stop considering one day contributing toward the maintenance and upkeep of this site.

Hank Chinaski · 03-09-2005, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Apparently the Hezbollah rally in Beirut drew 500,000 people -- one-eighth of the country's population. Wow.

Was the stated purpose to protest foreign (read US) involvement, or to say Syria please stay? Hint- things you read in english aren't evidence.

Tyrone Slothrop · 03-09-2005, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ironweed
By the way, if this is not made the next board motto I will stop considering one day contributing toward the maintenance and upkeep of this site.

As the only moderator currently posting here under his primary sock, let me just say that I am without the power to change the board motto that appears on the Forum page. That's an admin thing. (I'm sure RT will change the board memo at the polite request of anyone who agrees with her about health care policy.)

Replaced_Texan · 03-09-2005, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
As the only moderator currently posting here under his primary sock, let me just say that I am without the power to change the board motto that appears on the Forum page. That's an admin thing. (I'm sure RT will change the board memo at the polite request of anyone who agrees with her about health care policy.)

Done.