Nutjobs Ranting About Politics. - Page 315

bilmore · 09-16-2004, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You're posting a blogger's summary to read instead of my direct quotations from the report's executive summary? Now that's chutzpah.

No, I'm not Jewish. So it's simply nerve.

Point is, I think you read that report through your own filter, plus I think the CSIS people write it through another one. BC does a nice deconstructing/contextualing explanation that makes the CSIS report both more penetrable, and more logical.

bilmore · 09-16-2004, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Holding an election does not a democracy make.

Will you concede that it gets you a lot closer to it than they were, though?

Shape Shifter · 09-16-2004, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
If I didn't know better I would think you were part of the blame America first crowd. Why are you always so willing to look at the glass half empty? Yes, I understand the need to be critical, and the press (even when they are wrong) does serve this need. But why don't you view this positively? 2 years ago it was a totalitarian state. Now it is moving toward a democracy with 7.5 million (or whatever number) voting for a president in October and for parliment February. When viewed like that I'm not sure how you can view this as not positive.

The glass is not half-empty, it's been blown away by insurgents. Iraq is moving closer to chaos than to democracy. The only good thing I see to come out of the war in Iraq is no more SH. So what? I don't feel like the world is any safer; in fact, it's just the opposite. The war in Iraq has been an expensive disaster, both strategically and tactically.

bilmore · 09-16-2004, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
The glass is not half-empty, it's been blown away by insurgents. Iraq is moving closer to chaos than to democracy. The only good thing I see to come out of the war in Iraq is no more SH. So what? I don't feel like the world is any safer; in fact, it's just the opposite. The war in Iraq has been an expensive disaster, both strategically and tactically.

Read some Iraq news. You are wrong. I can't put it any more diplomatically than that.

Hank Chinaski · 09-16-2004, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
The glass is not half-empty, it's been blown away by insurgents. Iraq is moving closer to chaos than to democracy.

Because of the suicide bombers? How do you see Israel? Chaos?

Tyrone Slothrop · 09-16-2004, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
What other responses are there then to such people? Let them go about their business?

It seems that if you're right about his m.o., then the UN was wrong to insist on continued efforts to inspect.

Except that he did let Blix see enough to change his mind. His brinksmanship skills were off, 's'all, maybe because of the mental illness wonk described.

I'm not saying he was sane. It's just too easy to call Arabs crazy or irrational.

bilmore · 09-16-2004, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'm not saying he was sane. It's just too easy to call Arabs crazy or irrational.

Even the crazy or irrational ones? Doesn't that make you . . . . well, you know.

Tyrone Slothrop · 09-16-2004, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
No, I'm not Jewish. So it's simply nerve.

Point is, I think you read that report through your own filter, plus I think the CSIS people write it through another one. BC does a nice deconstructing/contextualing explanation that makes the CSIS report both more penetrable, and more logical.

Now that I've read the blogger's take, which is not all bad, I can say that it seems to quote what I quoted, and also to add some context. So this post is closer to the mark than your first one.

But both you and the blogger don't seem to adequately pick up CSIS's concern that things are deteriorating.

taxwonk · 09-16-2004, 04:33 PM

Candidates almost take positions.

Shape Shifter · 09-16-2004, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Read some Iraq news. You are wrong. I can't put it any more diplomatically than that.

Don't be condescending. What is this news that sounds so great? How many were killed last week in Baghdad? What about the recent intelligence reports (sorry, I didn't read your link. No disrespect, just a time issue)? Sure, we patch up a pipline and electrical line or two, but then it's just blown up again by insurgents. The place is going to shit, insurgent factions are decreasing and it's looking more like there will be civil war, not elections. I'd love for you to convince me otherwise.

bilmore · 09-16-2004, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
But both you and the blogger don't seem to adequately pick up CSIS's concern that things are deteriorating.

I think we do. We just look at that concern, pay a bit more attention to context, and realize that the concern is somewhat - not totally, but somewhat - overblown.

Remember that part of the context involves cries of quagmire, deterioration, popular uprising, swinging opinion, lack of resolve, and poor execution from day one. I don't remember a week when the sky wasn't falling, in some people's minds. This is a significant blip. I think we make it over this blip fairly quickly. Problem is, you only have forty-some days to make it an insurmountable one. If there was no election coming up, I think we would be hearing far less doomsday talk. Bush made it clear long ago that this will be a long undertaking, requiring significant resolve and expense and work. Kerry has to make it into chaos right now, and so he claims that Bush has failed to fix things on a timetable that Bush explicitly disavowed long ago.

Tyrone Slothrop · 09-16-2004, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Will you concede that it gets you a lot closer to it than they were, though?

No. Zimbabwe holds elections. No one could fairly call it a functioning democracy right now. It takes more than that. For all I know, the Taliban was holding elections. And if the central government's writ doesn't extend far beyond the capital, it doesn't really matter who wins, right?

Tyrone Slothrop · 09-16-2004, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
I don't remember a week when the sky wasn't falling, in some people's minds.

Refresh your recollection by looking at the CSIS report, which shows that there previously was progress but that things are deteriorating.

You can be such a hack. Some of us think that it matters who is elected President because it will affect Iraq, not that the state of Iraq matters because it will affect the election.

bilmore · 09-16-2004, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
No. Zimbabwe holds elections. No one could fairly call it a functioning democracy right now.

Does your construct for calling something an "election" require an actual vote count, with freedom to vote as you please? Mine does. Your response would encompass SH's pre-war 100% win. That's not what I mean when I speak of elections.

So, if you assume one person one vote, and a fair count, does THAT get you a lot closer to democracy?

bilmore · 09-16-2004, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Refresh your recollection by looking at the CSIS report, which shows that there previously was progress but that things are deteriorating.

You can be such a hack. Some of us think that it matters who is elected President because it will affect Iraq, not that the state of Iraq matters because it will affect the election.

Lame, Ty. However, it is a refreshing switch to see you argue morality over practicality. Some of us wanted to stop the slaughter of millions earlier, but had to argue with you about yellowcake.