LawTalkers  

Go Back   LawTalkers > General Discussion > Politics

» Site Navigation
 > FAQ
» Online Users: 301
0 members and 301 guests
No Members online
Most users ever online was 4,499, 10-26-2015 at 08:55 AM.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-03-2008, 05:06 PM   #4741
SlaveNoMore
Consigliere
 
SlaveNoMore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Pelosi Land!
Posts: 9,477
Groucho Marxism

Quote:
taxwonk
One thing you "has" is an Army, doing what you have asserted all over this board is the right thing. Is there something inherently wrong about not being willing to pay for it?
Cite please. Show me where I've advocated the elimination of all taxes?

That said - let's take a prime, current example:

Taxes for ethanol subsidies - subsidies which make corn growers rich while double whammying everyone else with higher general taxes AND simultaneously raising the price of gasoline and food [Brilliant!] are indefensible - even from a guy from Chicago.
SlaveNoMore is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:08 PM   #4742
Gattigap
Southern charmer
 
Gattigap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: At the Great Altar of Passive Entertainment
Posts: 7,033
Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Huckabee is yet another smiley, centrist from Arkansas. I thought the Democrat party loved smiley, centrists from Arkansas?

What's generally wrong with Romney? Although I'm a Rudy guy, I'd damn well trust the founder of Bain Capital over a no-experience, empty suit like Obama or [pick an adjective] like Hillary.
Romney famously ran to the left of Ted Kennedy in MA, now is trying to run to the right of everyone in the GOP field. Who's the empty suit?
__________________
I'm done with nonsense here. --- H. Chinaski
Gattigap is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:17 PM   #4743
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,202
Groucho Marxism

Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Cite please. Show me where I've advocated the elimination of all taxes?
You're reading too much National Review. But I must admit, I do love the "recharacterize the opponent's argument as something absurd" tactic.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:21 PM   #4744
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,202
Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:
Originally posted by Gattigap
Romney famously ran to the left of Ted Kennedy in MA, now is trying to run to the right of everyone in the GOP field. Who's the empty suit?
He'd boil his children alive on national television for the Presidency. Of all the people running, a crowd of creeps like few I've seen before, he stands head and shoulders above everyone else as the person you'd least like to be stuck next to in coach. He's like an old, dull version of Reese Witherspoon's atrocious character in 'Election."
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:23 PM   #4745
SlaveNoMore
Consigliere
 
SlaveNoMore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Pelosi Land!
Posts: 9,477
Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:
Gattigap
Romney famously ran to the left of Ted Kennedy in MA, now is trying to run to the right of everyone in the GOP field. Who's the empty suit?
You are perhaps confusing "empty" with "shady"
SlaveNoMore is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:26 PM   #4746
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,129
Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:
Originally posted by taxwonk
I'll give you Kucinich. And Edwards. I think they're both idiots. And if either one of them were pulliing the same kind of numbers Paul is, I'd be as afraid of their supporters, too.
http://www.presidentpolls2008.com/po...ion-Polls.html

http://www.presidentpolls2008.com/po...ion-Polls.html

2 to 3 %
__________________
I will not suffer a fool- but I do seem to read a lot of their posts
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:28 PM   #4747
SlaveNoMore
Consigliere
 
SlaveNoMore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Pelosi Land!
Posts: 9,477
Here's an unofficial poll for you

How many of you right now are actually supporting SOMEONE?

I'm not talking about the ostensible nominee for your party - hell, 2008 is shaping up to be a repeat of 2004; namely, most people will merely vote AGAINST the nominee of the other party*

I have said countless times I am FOR Giuliani.

I think it is safe to say that Ty is FOR Obama.

But is anyone else out there seriously and actually committed to any of these folks?

Please discuss.



*If anyone here admits they voted FOR Bush or FOR Kerry (except maybe Panda), they are lying.
SlaveNoMore is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:33 PM   #4748
LessinSF
Wearing the cranky pants
 
LessinSF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Pulling your finger
Posts: 7,119
Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Huckabee is yet another smiley, centrist from Arkansas. I thought the Democrat party loved smiley, centrists from Arkansas?

What's generally wrong with Romney? Although I'm a Rudy guy, I'd damn well trust the founder of Bain Capital over a no-experience, empty suit like Obama or [pick an adjective] like Hillary.
Putting aside his religion (which I don't think he really cares about), I will take the competent technocrat over the rest of the blowhards and ideologues every time.
__________________
Boogers!
LessinSF is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:38 PM   #4749
LessinSF
Wearing the cranky pants
 
LessinSF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Pulling your finger
Posts: 7,119
Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:
Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Romney's a robot. He's a soulless shitbag who doesn't have the balls to stick by a single conviction. David Brooks destroyed him in a Times editorial this week that said it all:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/01/op...=1&oref=slogin

Yes, I'd vote for him, but only as a last resort. They're all scumbags, but even Hillary and Rudy have the decency to stand by some of their core beliefs.
From the Volokh Conspiracy:

Prof. Brad Smith on Why He Supports Mitt Romney for President:

"For politically oriented libertarians, politics is the art of picking the most libertarian candidate who has a chance of winning.

Bill Richardson has no chance of winning, and the other Democratic hopefuls offer nothing to supporters of limited government. On the Republican side, we can safely skip the Ron Paul debate -- he is not going to be the next president of the United States. John McCain sometimes blunders into support of limited government, but his usual reaction to his personal whim of the day is that government should do something about it. And, his honorable service to his country notwithstanding, his unstable personality and temper make him uniquely unqualified for the presidency.

That leaves three electable candidates who can offer some legitimate claim to libertarian sympathies -- Mitt Romney, Rudy Giuliani, and Fred Thompson. Romney is an easy choice.

Governor Romney's tax policy should make a libertarian's mouth water. It begins with the no-brainers -- make the Bush tax cuts permanent, eliminate the estate tax, and nix any increase in social security taxes. In addition, Romney has proposed substantial reductions in the corporate tax rate, where the United States rate is now one of the highest among the Western democracies, and in individual income tax rates, across the board. He has proposed eliminating all taxes on dividends and interest for those earning less than $200,000. One of Governor Romney's most important yet overlooked proposals is to make all spending on health care premiums and medical expenses tax deductible, an initiative that will do much to rationalize health care markets by putting individual coverage on the same plane as employer-provided health plans.

Romney is a talented businessman with an understanding of how start-up enterprises and a dynamic, growth oriented economy work. He understands how Sarbanes-Oxley is costing the U.S. is predominant place in world capital markets, and will take an ax to the Washington regulatory machine. As the Club for Growth says, Governor Romney has “an intuitive appreciation for free markets.” It's in his blood.

Romney is a strong supporter of free trade, as befits his background helping companies compete in the global economy. On immigration, Romney has exactly the right position -- opposition to illegal immigration (which libertarians should oppose if only because it undercuts support for legal immigration) while acting, “to encourage legal immigration and streamline the system.”

At one time, Romney, Rudy and Thompson all supported the egregious McCain-Feingold campaign finance bill. Rudy and Fred have since trimmed their sails, but only Romney has forthrightly admitted that his prior support was in error, and come out four-square in favor of the law's repeal.

Romney supports school choice and home schooling. And Mitt will appoint good judges.

Of course, it is one thing to have an agenda, and another to deliver. Both Romney and Rudy have shown an impressive ability to make headway on tax and spending issues in the face of overwhelmingly liberal legislatures and political cultures deeply attached to high levels of regulation and taxation. Despite a generally admirable voting record, Senator Thompson lacks the executive experience of Governor Romney and Mayor Giuliani, and it is difficult to name any issue, during his eight years in the Senate, on which he took the lead in promoting smaller government. The one bill which he played a critical role in passing was the odious McCain-Feingold legislation.

On its 2006 Governors Fiscal Policy Report Card, the Cato Institute rated Romney 12th overall and 7th of 26 Republicans. In 2004, Cato put Romney 11th overall, and 8th among Republicans. The Club for Growth has praised his “support for broad based tax cuts in liberal Massachusetts.” It is true that in addition to cutting spending in order to balance the budget deficit he inherited, Governor Romney supported a variety of fee hikes and the closing of “loopholes” in the tax code. Given the overwhelming Democratic majorities in the state legislature (137-23 in the House, 33-7 in the Senate), it is not realistic to think that the budget could have been balanced by spending cuts alone. Politics is the art of the possible --as it is, many of Governor Romney's spending vetoes were overridden by the legislature. In Washington, Romney will not face Democratic legislative majorities of such magnitude. Meanwhile, Governor Romney was victorious in what the Club for Growth calls a “bloody fight” with the legislature over the state capital gains tax, winning a rebate of $275 million for state taxpayers. He proposed reductions in the state income tax. During his tenure, state spending rose by an average of just 2.22% per year, versus annualized inflation and population growth of 3.0%. By comparison, under Mayor Giuliani spending in New York City rose at an average rate of 2.84%, versus population growth and inflation of 2.9%. Over a four year presidency, those differences would add up to nearly $80 billion in reduced government spending.

As Governor, Romney actually vetoed an increase in the state's minimum wage. He also successfully vetoed a legislative effort to put a moratorium on the opening of charter schools.

Governor Romney is a man who knows how to get things done, from his success in business, to turning around the Salt Lake Olympic Games, to running a remarkable campaign for President that most observers thought was totally improbable just two years ago. Halting and reversing the growth of government requires more than just the right views -- it requires the right abilities. Governor Romney has those abilities.

In foreign policy, libertarians were among the staunchest foes of communism during the Cold War. We should be equally in the forefront in the battle against the current threat to Western liberal values, Islamic extremism. The Cold war lasted over 40 years, and although it sometimes involved significant military action (most notably in Korea and Vietnam for the U.S., and in Afghanistan for the USSR), the principle antagonists avoided direct conflict on the battlefield. It was a series of small proxy wars, intelligence battles, and economic and diplomatic pressure. The United States must begin to think of the fight with Islamic extremism in similar terms -- as a long commitment in which conventional armies are of limited use. Romney is a candidate who is serious about the threats presented: resolute, but not bellicose; prepared to use force when necessary, but mindful of the limits of conventional warfare; aware of the need to win hearts and minds but not naïve about the nature of our enemies. Trade, commerce, and appropriate restraint will mark a Romney foreign policy.

Libertarians must understand that the Democratic nominee is going to be committed to a substantial growth in government, will probably be working with an even more statist Democratic Congress, and will appoint judges who see the Constitution's restraints on government power as obstacles to overcome rather than limits to heed. Governor Romney has demonstrated the ability to plan and run a first rate campaign, and to reassemble the elements of the Reagan coalition (including its non-libertarian elements) that resulted in the most libertarian Presidency of the last 80 years. He has a proven record of executive experience that Senator Thompson cannot match. While Governor Romney and Mayor Giuliani offer similar economic prescriptions and have each demonstrated ability to see them through In hostile circumstances, the Governor's opposition to McCain-Feingold, support for free trade (the Mayor has opposed NAFTA), and more restrained attitude toward the use of U.S. power abroad make him the preferred choice. His pro-growth tax proposals, proven record of controlling and even rolling back government spending and regulation, support for basic individual freedoms such as home schooling and the right to bear arms, and ultimately his ability to defeat the whichever unrepentant statist wins the Democratic nomination, make him the place where libertarians should be in 2008."
__________________
Boogers!
LessinSF is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:39 PM   #4750
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 33,049
Groucho Marxism

Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Is there something inherently wrong with wanting to keep what one has?
I used to think that libertarians cared about more than (their own) property rights.
__________________
“It was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:43 PM   #4751
Tyrone Slothrop
Moderasaurus Rex
 
Tyrone Slothrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 33,049
Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:
Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
They're all scumbags, but even Hillary and Rudy have the decency to stand by some of their core beliefs.
Obama is not a scumbag.

Quote:
Originally posted by Slave
I think it is safe to say that Ty is FOR Obama.
I have thought all along that I am inclined to vote for Obama but might change my mind by the time I get to vote. (E.g., I think I would vote for Edwards over HRC if they were the two leaders and Obama didn't have a shot.) I still feel this way, but the time for someone to change my mind is shrinking.
__________________
“It was fortunate that so few men acted according to moral principle, because it was so easy to get principles wrong, and a determined person acting on mistaken principles could really do some damage." - Larissa MacFarquhar

Last edited by Tyrone Slothrop; 01-03-2008 at 05:46 PM..
Tyrone Slothrop is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:51 PM   #4752
sebastian_dangerfield
Moderator
 
sebastian_dangerfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,202
Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:
Originally posted by LessinSF
Romney stuff.
I am in your debt. Romney 2008!

Like I said, I would vote for him. I just don't like him.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
sebastian_dangerfield is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:58 PM   #4753
taxwonk
Wild Rumpus Facilitator
 
taxwonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In a teeny, tiny, little office
Posts: 14,167
Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:
Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Uh, read a lot of what you've written today, then Google some of Edwards' "Two Americas" stuff. Perhaps it's an inability to draw the nuanced differences between your positions in a rapid fire medium like this, but what you've argued today and what he argues look pretty similar.
It's largely the fact that I've given the nuanced, detailed explanations a million times already. I'm not in favor of wealth redistribution. I'm opposed to people who don't deserve them getting tax breaks.

I don't think that CSX dividends (earned by someone else's grandaprents maybe, mine ran a drugstore) should be taxed at a lower rate than the salary I earn or the hourly wage a stockboy earns at Wa-Mart.

I also think it's bullshit to try and characterize capital gains as money that has already been taxed. You don't get taxed on what you put in, that's called basis and you recover it before teh first penny is taxed as capital gain. I don't think we need to provide an incentive for people to make money. And I think that if we do, then we should provide me an incentive to show up every day and earn my paycheck.

The last point, by the way, is one of the things we agree on. Steve Schwartzmann, Henry Kravis, and Leon Black are getting a break on their paychecks. We both think that's wrong.

You were right, there are a lot of things we agree on and a lot we disagree on. You've seen me say all this before. You should know better than to lump me in with somebody who thinks that every family in America with an income over $250,000 should be forced to buy a car and a color tv for a Mom on welfare with 15 kids.
__________________
Send in the evil clowns.
taxwonk is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 05:59 PM   #4754
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Registered User
 
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Government Yard in Trenchtown
Posts: 20,182
Ron Paul supporters rally in World of Warcraft

Quote:
Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I am in your debt. Romney 2008!

Like I said, I would vote for him. I just don't like him.
Why not? He thinks exactly what you do at least one day of the week.
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy is offline  
Old 01-03-2008, 06:01 PM   #4755
taxwonk
Wild Rumpus Facilitator
 
taxwonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In a teeny, tiny, little office
Posts: 14,167
Groucho Marxism

Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Cite please. Show me where I've advocated the elimination of all taxes?

That said - let's take a prime, current example:

Taxes for ethanol subsidies - subsidies which make corn growers rich while double whammying everyone else with higher general taxes AND simultaneously raising the price of gasoline and food [Brilliant!] are indefensible - even from a guy from Chicago.
I've said that before. Forget about ethanol, just take farm subsidies period. I don't think we should be paying farmers not to grow food while people are starving.
__________________
Send in the evil clowns.
taxwonk is offline  
Closed Thread


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0.1

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:55 PM.