Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck.

[Hank Chinaski]

Today, contrary to usual, we actually were able to prove several things.

1 Despite the Dems allegations of environmental back sliding they cannot point to a single relevant change. Thus, we have proven there was no backsliding.

2 Kerry will likely turn off more allies, and there is an arrogance from the Dems of the value of small countries as friends.

3 The sole alleged Bush flop is a meaningless change of a predicition in result, not policy or plan like the dozens of Kerry changes.

4 SS is brain damage.

[SlaveNoMore]

Gattigap
2 to what SS said.

You know, you guys belittle the allies that we have.

What or who is the alternative?

Name on single country - not on that list - that would provide worthwhile support in either personnel or monetary assistance?

Franco-Prussia? Will never happen in our lifetime.

Russia? Ha. Besides, look how their help in WW II turned out.

Mexico? Canada?

In all seriousness, the bottom line is that the countries we need are the countries we got. All other "commitments" are nothing but meaningless lip service.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Name on single country - not on that list - that would provide worthwhile support in either personnel or monetary assistance?

Why don't you compare the list of countries and their contributions from Gulf War I and Gulf War II. George H.W. Bush understood the value of putting together a real coalition and building international support. His son understood the value of a PR strategy designed to obfuscate the difference between the earlier strategy and what he was actually doing.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Today, contrary to usual, we actually were able to prove several things.

Uh huh.

2 Kerry will likely turn off more allies, and there is an arrogance from the Dems of the value of small countries as friends.

It used to be that our allies provided more than moral support, though I agree with you that standing up to be counted on a list is important, just as it's important to treasure the small things in life, and friendship is undoubtedly one of them. Truly precious, like the warm breezes of (say) Micronesia.

4 SS is brain damage.

OK, here you've got me.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Today, contrary to usual, we actually were able to prove several things.

1 Despite the Dems allegations of environmental back sliding they cannot point to a single relevant change. Thus, we have proven there was no backsliding.

The EPA finalized the most significant weakening of clean air rules since Congress passed the Clean Air Act in 1970 in 2003. Look it up. How's your kid's asthma doing?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
The EPA finalized the most significant weakening of clean air rules since Congress passed the Clean Air Act in 1970 in 2003. Look it up. How's your kid's asthma doing?

Bush has championed the biggest inititive, and overseen the greatest result in increasing alternative energy cars and resultant emission reduction. Look it up.

See! Provide a real cite and some "evidence" of harm and I'll blow it apart.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
You know, you guys belittle the allies that we have.

What or who is the alternative?

Name on single country - not on that list - that would provide worthwhile support in either personnel or monetary assistance?

Franco-Prussia? Will never happen in our lifetime.

Russia? Ha. Besides, look how their help in WW II turned out.

Mexico? Canada?

In all seriousness, the bottom line is that the countries we need are the countries we got. All other "commitments" are nothing but meaningless lip service.

Are some of those even countries? I thought Micronesia was a US territory. Ditto with Soloman Islands and Marshall Islands. So I looked up Micronesia in the CIA Factbook to see. Sure 'nuff Miconesia is a country! From the CIA:

Military - Federated States of Micronesia (FSM) is a sovereign, self-governing state in free association with the US; FSM is totally dependent on the US for its defense

Economic Overview - Economic activity consists primarily of subsistence farming and fishing.

GDP - purchasing power parity - $277 million
note: GDP is supplemented by grant aid, averaging perhaps $100 million annually (2002 est.)

Industries - tourism, construction, fish processing, specialized aquaculture, craft items from shell, wood, and pearls


Now you've given us a beeg beeg list. Tell us how these countries are participating. You can start with Micronesia, which has no military, no economy (other than what it receives from the US in grants), and no industry other than sea shell trinkets.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
Why don't you compare the list of countries and their contributions from Gulf War I and Gulf War II. George H.W. Bush understood the value of putting together a real coalition and building international support. His son understood the value of a PR strategy designed to obfuscate the difference between the earlier strategy and what he was actually doing.

http://www.cryan.com/war/AlliedForces.html

Here is a list. As you can see, the notable absences are the Canadian hardware and the 18,000 French troops.

No German, Belgian or Russian troops to be seen.

We seemed to have picked up a lot more former Soviet Bloc countries this time around. And we aren't exactly lacking in transports or hardware.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
http://www.cryan.com/war/AlliedForces.html

Here is a list. As you can see, the notable absences are the Canadian hardware and the 18,000 French troops.

No German, Belgian or Russian troops to be seen.

We seemed to have picked up a lot more former Soviet Bloc countries this time around. And we aren't exactly lacking in transports or hardware.

Wow. Even the US sent more troops last time. And we were just liberating Kuwait, not trying to occupy Iraq.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Bush has championed the biggest inititive, and overseen the greatest result in increasing alternative energy cars and resultant emission reduction. Look it up.

See! Provide a real cite and some "evidence" of harm and I'll blow it apart.

You are exactly what Sebby was talking about: the dumbest of dumb...the person who defends his party at any cost. Again, like an Italian family member, you don't care if Uncle Tony whacked his girlfriend. He's family, so he can do no wrong. Welcome to Dipshitville. Population: You.

Read this interview.

"Buckheit spent the last 20 years of his government career working on air quality issues, most recently as director of the Environmental Protection Agency's Air Enforcement Division. But in December, he made a difficult decision to retire from the EPA."

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4759864/

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
You know, you guys belittle the allies that we have.

I don't belittle the allies that we have. For example, I think the UK and Australia stepped up, big time.

But I am laughing at the notion that you seem to think a big long list of countries, the majority of whom were added for moral support and contributed absolutely nothing in terms of manpower or materiel, constitutes an overwhelming coalition. This is a PR list, Slave. Even the Administration hasn't had the chutzpah to wave it around recently, and for this crowd that's a pretty impressive bar.

What or who is the alternative?

Name on single country - not on that list - that would provide worthwhile support in either personnel or monetary assistance?

Ty's suggestion to compare GWI and GWII is not a bad place to start.

In all seriousness, the bottom line is that the countries we need are the countries we got. All other "commitments" are nothing but meaningless lip service.

In all seriousness, I can't believe that you really believe this.

Here is a list. As you can see, the notable absences are the Canadian hardware and the 18,000 French troops.

No German, Belgian or Russian troops to be seen.

We seemed to have picked up a lot more former Soviet Bloc countries this time around. And we aren't exactly lacking in transports or hardware.

Jesus, Slave. Keep reading. There's also 40k troops from UAE, 17k troops from Syria, 118k troops from Saudi Arabia, 11k troops from Kuwait, 40k troops from Egypt.

I think they'd come in handy these days.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
http://www.cryan.com/war/AlliedForces.html

Here is a list. As you can see, the notable absences are the Canadian hardware and the 18,000 French troops.

No German, Belgian or Russian troops to be seen.

We seemed to have picked up a lot more former Soviet Bloc countries this time around. And we aren't exactly lacking in transports or hardware.

We got some Arab troops last time, and a lot more money. Plus, a truly international coalition (i.e., one not perceived as a front for us) would surely have caused less of a backlash against us there.

eta: What Gatti said.

[SlaveNoMore]

Gattigap
Jesus, Slave. Keep reading. There's also 40k troops from UAE, 17k troops from Syria, 118k troops from Saudi Arabia, 11k troops from Kuwait, 40k troops from Egypt.

I think they'd come in handy these days.

Handy for whom?

The world is a far different place than 1991. Why in god's name would we WANT troops from Syria, Saudi Arabia or Egypt?

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Handy for whom?

The world is a far different place than 1991. Why in god's name would we WANT troops from Syria, Saudi Arabia or Egypt?

Damn straight. Hell, now that we have Micronesian sea shells, what more do we need?

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Handy for whom?

The world is a far different place than 1991. Why in god's name would we WANT troops from Syria, Saudi Arabia or Egypt?

I understand the diceyness of deploying, say, the Turks into Kurdish regions, notwithstanding the Pentagon's original plans to do so.

But I understand somewhat less your rationale that troops from these other countries are somehow fucking worthless. I suppose, though, it would explain your insistence that "we've got all we need, thanks," as we've run fresh out of "acceptable" countries.