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10-25-2004, 01:54 PM
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#4801
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,207
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No Moral Case Against the War
Quote:
Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Yeah, I haven't been exposed to sarcasm very much in my past, so a lot of the time I'm not really sure when people are being sarcastic. I would greatly appreciate it if people would label their sarcasm with a "sarcasm appears below" tag, just to avoid any confusion.
Hello
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Sarcasm appears above.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
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10-25-2004, 01:55 PM
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#4802
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Wild Rumpus Facilitator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In a teeny, tiny, little office
Posts: 14,167
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No Moral Case Against the War
Quote:
Originally posted by sgtclub
If I understand you right I find this incredible. You are (1) backing moral relativism and (2) you are giving priority to a nation's sovereignty over human life?
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1) I am not backing moral relativism, so much as arguing that it is impossible to adopt moral absolutism as a political strategy. We simply haven't the means, militarily, economically, or morally, to dictate to the world what is and is not acceptable behavior and back that up by force.
2) I am giving sovereignty priority over human life only because we live in a world of conflicting social, economic, political, and religious systems. Since we aren't God(s), we cannot in an absolute moral sense claim superiority over any other belief system or sovereign nation. Therefore, we must live by a system of laws. International law dictates that we may not invade another sovereign nation at will.
3) Every single day, nations, societies, people, give one life priority over another. In our own society, we have chosen to limit welfare. As a result, people die of hunger, exposure, or crime every day. Our helath care system doesn't provide for the best possible care for all persons. As a result, people die of treatable or curable dsieases for lack of resources to pay for treatment.
Your own political beliefs, as voiced here repeatedly, don't meet an absolute moral standard. Why do you profess to be shocked that anyone else is a moral relativist when you are one yourself?
__________________
Send in the evil clowns.
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10-25-2004, 01:57 PM
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#4803
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Too Lazy to Google
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,460
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Quote:
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Originally posted by taxwonk What I meant by calling it a smokescreen was that invading Iraq really did absolutely nothing to reduce the terrorist threat to the US
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Cite please. What I can cite to you to show you are wrong is that we have had ZERO terrorist attacks on US soil since Iraq was invaded and all reports show that the AQ is focused on Iraq. The AQ operatives are flowing into Iraq, not the US.
You are wrong, again, taxwonk.
__________________
IRL I'm Charming.
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10-25-2004, 02:00 PM
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#4804
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Wild Rumpus Facilitator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In a teeny, tiny, little office
Posts: 14,167
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No Moral Case Against the War
Quote:
Originally posted by sgtclub
I fully agree that we can't always do the moral thing. I was just trying to limit the discussion to the moral issue, to see if anyone could come up with a MORAL argument against the invasion. There are many legitimate practical arguments against invasion.
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How many people were killed in the invasion? How many have been killed so far trying to suppress the insurgents? How many have fallen in looting or banditry due to the further breakdown of social order?
How can you morally argue that it's okay for those people to have been killed in order to prevent the deaths of others? You can, actually. But not on absolute morality grounds. You have to look to moral relativism. Because we are human, after all, and we cannot deal in absolutes in a relative world.
__________________
Send in the evil clowns.
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10-25-2004, 02:13 PM
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#4805
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Monty Capuletti's gazebo
Posts: 26,207
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No Moral Case Against the War
Quote:
Originally posted by taxwonk
...we cannot deal in absolutes in a relative world.
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You just descibed the chasm between the red and blue states. The red wants certainty - the blue realizes it doesn't exist.
__________________
All is for the best in the best of all possible worlds.
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10-25-2004, 02:14 PM
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#4806
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Wild Rumpus Facilitator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In a teeny, tiny, little office
Posts: 14,167
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Quote:
Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
WAR IS PEACE.
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY.
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH.
That last one scares me. If only b/c pre-president Bush was never very curious about the rest of the world.
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I'd call that Orwellian, but it would confuse and anger Hank.
__________________
Send in the evil clowns.
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10-25-2004, 02:15 PM
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#4807
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In Spheres, Scissoring Heather Locklear
Posts: 1,687
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No Moral Case Against the War
Quote:
Originally posted by taxwonk
How many have fallen in looting or banditry due to the further breakdown of social order?
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"Fallen in looting"? Does that mean tripping over your stolen TV? And who the fuck cares who "fell" during looting. And..."fallen in banditry"? You are too funny!
Quote:
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You have to look to moral relativism. Because we are human, after all, and we cannot deal in absolutes in a relative world.
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Non sequitur. And a Sting song too.
We. Are. Spirits. In the Material. World.
There is no political solution
To our troubled evolution
Have no faith in constitution
There is no bloody revolution
We are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world
Are spirits in the material world |
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10-25-2004, 02:18 PM
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#4808
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World Ruler
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,057
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Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
Cite please. What I can cite to you to show you are wrong is that we have had ZERO terrorist attacks on US soil since Iraq was invaded and all reports show that the AQ is focused on Iraq. The AQ operatives are flowing into Iraq, not the US.
You are wrong, again, taxwonk.
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We've had ZERO terrorist attacks on US soil since Martha Stewart was arrested for insider trading.
__________________
"More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming out any other way."
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10-25-2004, 02:20 PM
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#4809
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Rageaholic
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: On the margins.
Posts: 3,507
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A reminder that Iraq and Terrorism aren't the only issues at stake here.
Chief Justice Rehnquist treated this weekend for thyroid cancer.
Story here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6328363/
Does this help to push "undecideds" off the fence, or not so much?
__________________
Some people say I need anger management. I say fuck them.
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10-25-2004, 02:22 PM
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#4810
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Wild Rumpus Facilitator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In a teeny, tiny, little office
Posts: 14,167
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No Moral Case Against the War
Quote:
Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
I used Rwanda to show how TW's general statement about going to war in a foreign country does not work because the rule he/she proposed would have rendered any U.S. support in Rwanda "morally unsupportable." To the extent one thinks some intervention in Rwanda would not have been immoral, then my example worked to show the uselessness of TW's simple proposed rule. From herein, I will refer to Taxwonk as "The Twit".
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But, you fail to appreciate that my argument was based on two simple concepts: how can one argue that a violation of international law, especially one that involves killing people, even if those people are killing other people, be called "moral" in an absolute sense? Henceforth, I will think of you as "the simple."
__________________
Send in the evil clowns.
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10-25-2004, 02:28 PM
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#4811
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Wild Rumpus Facilitator
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In a teeny, tiny, little office
Posts: 14,167
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Quote:
Originally posted by Not Me
Cite please. What I can cite to you to show you are wrong is that we have had ZERO terrorist attacks on US soil since Iraq was invaded and all reports show that the AQ is focused on Iraq. The AQ operatives are flowing into Iraq, not the US.
You are wrong, again, taxwonk.
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I call bullshit. Three have been at least two AQ attacks in Saudi and one in Yemen since Iraq was invaded. What's more, there were only two terrorist attacks in the US before Iraq was invaded; hardly a statistically meaningful number. You can't produce any credible evidence that the Iraq invasion has kept AQ from attacking the US. However, to the extent AQ is active in Iraq, I'm sure they get credit for a portion of the 1000+ American lives lost there, plus the casualties suffered by Americans.
__________________
Send in the evil clowns.
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10-25-2004, 02:30 PM
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#4812
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Random Syndicate (admin)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Romantically enfranchised
Posts: 14,278
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A reminder that Iraq and Terrorism aren't the only issues at stake here.
Quote:
Originally posted by spookyfish
Chief Justice Rehnquist treated this weekend for thyroid cancer.
Story here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6328363/
Does this help to push "undecideds" off the fence, or not so much?
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hmph. I thought we fixed it so admins couldn't be ignored. 
__________________
"In the olden days before the internet, you'd take this sort of person for a ride out into the woods and shoot them, as Darwin intended, before he could spawn."--Will the Vampire People Leave the Lobby? pg 79
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10-25-2004, 02:34 PM
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#4813
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Rageaholic
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: On the margins.
Posts: 3,507
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A reminder that Iraq and Terrorism aren't the only issues at stake here.
Quote:
Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
hmph. I thought we fixed it so admins couldn't be ignored.
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My apologies. I haven't spent much time in this sandbox lately.
__________________
Some people say I need anger management. I say fuck them.
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10-25-2004, 02:39 PM
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#4814
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Random Syndicate (admin)
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Romantically enfranchised
Posts: 14,278
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A reminder that Iraq and Terrorism aren't the only issues at stake here.
Quote:
Originally posted by spookyfish
My apologies. I haven't spent much time in this sandbox lately.
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No worries. Apparently I activated my cloaking device on that post, because everyone ignored it.
__________________
"In the olden days before the internet, you'd take this sort of person for a ride out into the woods and shoot them, as Darwin intended, before he could spawn."--Will the Vampire People Leave the Lobby? pg 79
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10-25-2004, 02:41 PM
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#4815
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Rageaholic
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: On the margins.
Posts: 3,507
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A reminder that Iraq and Terrorism aren't the only issues at stake here.
Quote:
Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
No worries. Apparently I activated my cloaking device on that post, because everyone ignored it.
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Or it really is a single-issue campaign. Then again, the Supremes have never been accused of being sexy.
__________________
Some people say I need anger management. I say fuck them.
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