All Hank, all the time.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Spanky
Why would the Israeli's lie about this? And after these failures why did they buy so many more patriots? And if Star Wars is such a lost cause, why are the Israelis so involved in its planning and implementation?

They bought Patriots from us with money we gave them, perhaps?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Spanky
Even if the allegations in this statement are true, it even admits that the rate was low but there will still some success.

Did you read it? An M.I.T. professor said: "The results of these studies are disturbing. They suggest that the Patriot's intercept rate during the Gulf War was very low. The evidence from these preliminary studies indicates that Patriot's intercept rate could be much lower than ten percent, possibly even zero."

Granted, other people disagreed with him. (Which is why I said it was unclear. Which it is.)

You don't think we can now improve upon the patriot missile to make it more accurate?

I should hope so. But if we make it work twice as well, and North Korea builds twice as many missiles, then what?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Cletus Miller
1. True
2. True, but much, much harder if for no other reason than the difficulty of maintaining accuracy over the much greater distances iinvolved.
3. Of course the technology can be improved. I don't doubt that, with sufficient resources, a system can be developed to shoot down a single (maybe even a handful of) ballistic missles. Although it isn't your principle concern now, I do doubt the feasibility of the Reagan-era star wars program--i.e. a missile "shield" capable of shooting down hundreds or thousands of ballisitc missiles launched nearly simultaneously.

I only noted the article in relation to the question of why Rumsfeld and Cheney aren't making hay about it--suggesting that perhaps the results were not as overwhelming positive as "successful 7 out of 8" would imply.

I don't think the shield against the Soviet Union was ever realistic. Every time we improved our technology they would have found ways around it. But now we are competing with powers that are not our technological equals. Any missile they come up with will be rudimentary and not have MIRV capabilities. And that one technologically obsolete missile can do a lot of damage when an WMD is attached to it.

Right now we are very reluctant to get into a shooting match with North Korea because of all the artillary aimed at Seoul. The North Koreans know this and it seriously hampers our negotiating ability. Just think how much our negotiating ability will be compromised when they can hit San Francisco or LA (Hi Gattigap).

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I should hope so. But if we make it work twice as well, and North Korea builds twice as many missiles, then what?

North Korea isn't exactly the Soviet Union. When they've got more than one missile that can fly, let's discuss your concerns.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Spanky
Are you implying that there were just as many people trying to hijack our planes before September 11 as there are today? You don't think September 11 embolded would be terrorists around the world to get in the game?

I thought they were all busy fighting us in Iraq. Isn't that the neo-con "flypaper" theory?

The fact that nearly 20 people tried to hijack planes on 9-11, and succeeded, suggests to me that terrorists were feeling bold enough. I don't know how many times people have tried since then -- actually tried. Do you?

Except for Reid of course.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop

I should hope so. But if we make it work twice as well, and North Korea builds twice as many missiles, then what?

We can build a lot more patriot missles than they can build intercontinental ballistic missiles. It takes a serious effort on their part to put together one missile (I don't even think they really have one that can hit California yet). They are also limited on the amount of nuclear warheads they can put together. In addition, I believe our GDP is about 1000 times theirs. An arms race with North Korea would be like a clothes production contest between my grandmother and Mervyns.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
They bought Patriots from us with money we gave them, perhaps?

The Israelis are dead serious about missile defense. They know it is just a matter of time before someone with a real itchy trigger finger can hit Tel Aviv with a Nuclear Weapon or WMD. They are banking their whole existence on Star Wars.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I thought they were all busy fighting us in Iraq. Isn't that the neo-con "flypaper" theory?

The fact that nearly 20 people tried to hijack planes on 9-11, and succeeded, suggests to me that terrorists were feeling bold enough. I don't know how many times people have tried since then -- actually tried. Do you?

Except for Reid of course.

I don't think many tried before 9-11. And I firmly believe that if the screeners were not in place after 9-11 Al Queda would have hit again, and if not Al Queda, a lot of copy catters would have hit us once they knew we were vulverable.

Right now its not easy to get enough explosive material past the screeners to take down a plane, and if it was, I believe people would be doing it.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Cletus Miller
I only noted the article in relation to the question of why Rumsfeld and Cheney aren't making hay about it--suggesting that perhaps the results were not as overwhelming positive as "successful 7 out of 8" would imply.

I think that the "successful 7 out of 8" depends on a particular way of defining "successful." I do think that they are genuinely making headway, but consensus from most all people involved in the projects (other than politicians -- so, like, the military people and the people who make the thingies and the people who measure the effect of the shots) is that they aren't really very close to having something that would be effective in a real-world situation.



ETA Gatti's article was not about Patriot missiles, it was about M-3 somethings. Are they still working on projects that involve trying to get Patriots to hit ballistic missiles?

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Spanky
I don't think many tried before 9-11. And I firmly believe that if the screeners were not in place after 9-11 Al Queda would have hit again, and if not Al Queda, a lot of copy catters would have hit us once they knew we were vulverable.

Right now its not easy to get enough explosive material past the screeners to take down a plane, and if it was, I believe people would be doing it.

And we accomplished all this with no profiling?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I thought they were all busy fighting us in Iraq. Isn't that the neo-con "flypaper" theory?

The fact that nearly 20 people tried to hijack planes on 9-11, and succeeded, suggests to me that terrorists were feeling bold enough. I don't know how many times people have tried since then -- actually tried. Do you?

Except for Reid of course.

I was thinking about this yesterday (sorry to interupt whatever the argument is). In Mi a few weeks ago the FBI arrested some middle Eastern guys because they had bought like 80 cellphones and they had pix of the Mackinac Bridge.

Then we let them go, and CAIR and them were saying it was prejudice and profiling or whatever- and supposedly selling cellphones is a cottage industry in ME neighborhoods (why not just go to the store?). So the FBI over reacted.

but it occurs to me that if Atta et al were busted that morning at security- they would have been a dozen of so guys who happened to have some innocent box cutters and some pix of the WTC- BFD.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Spanky
We can build a lot more patriot missles than they can build intercontinental ballistic missiles. It takes a serious effort on their part to put together one missile (I don't even think they really have one that can hit California yet). They are also limited on the amount of nuclear warheads they can put together. In addition, I believe our GDP is about 1000 times theirs. An arms race with North Korea would be like a clothes production contest between my grandmother and Mervyns.

Mervyn's doesn't make clothes, they buy them from various suppliers. I used to know a manager of one who had been a buyer in the past.

Maybe this is related to your patriot thoughts and how they relate to the article gatti posted showing fairly positive news about missile-defense programs?

[Cletus Miller]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
supposedly selling cellphones is a cottage industry in ME neighborhoods (why not just go to the store?).

Bad/no credit? Wanting to make a bunch of overseas calls and just dumping the phone without paying?

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Spanky

Right now its not easy to get enough explosive material past the screeners to take down a plane, and if it was, I believe people would be doing it.

Apparently it is if you mix it on board.

[ltl/fb]

I think it may be generally accepted now that Patriots are most useful for low

Defense News
November 21, 2005

By Uzi Rubin, president of Rubincon, a consultancy, and founder of the Israel Missile Defense Organization.

excerpt re: Israeli missile defense: "Israel missile defense will be best served by a multilayered system combining, for example, sea-launched interceptors in the eastern Mediterranean with Arrow and Patriot batteries for upper-, mid- and lower-tier interceptions, respectively."

I can find some other stuff, but this guy does not sound like a flaming liberal out to undermine missile defense and have us all surrender to a Talibanic theocracy.