Still Hating America.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by ironweed
I think she was hoping that people would talk about the post, and argue about it using all kinds of sneaky and underhanded modes of discourse, thereby fulfilling the promise of the worldwide interweb as a bastion of free speech, cheap jibes and half-assed bullshit.

You have no faith.

In humanity.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Thought I'd recommend Sam Harris' book to you, if you hadn't already read it.

"Faith is what credulity becomes when it finally achives escape velocity from the constraints of terrestrial discourse - constraints like reasonableness, internal coherence, civility, and candor."

- Sam Harris, The End of Faith, p. 65


Damn, Sam. Tell us how you really feel.

***

I came across this book and didn't really expect much of it. I figured that I'd experience another simplistic pro-atheism argument, where since faith can't be proven, it's all nonsense.

Though I'm only in the midst of it, Harris' argument seems more than that. Beyond the logical problems with faith, his argument is essentially that we can't tolerate religion anymore because it's becoming increasingly easy for nutjob fundamentalists to wipe us out*, and that religious moderates are actually exacerbating the problem because their presence actually gives cover to prevent effective criticism of the fundamentalist nutjobs. As a religious moderate, I find this a disturbing point, but one that seems compelling.

I'm not sure I buy the argument yet, but then again I'm only a part of the way through the book. So far, though, I can report that Harris writes quite well, and makes a good argument. Even if I don't recommend the ultimate conclusion, I do recommend the book.

Gattigap





* From the footnotes: "M. Rees, [ in Our Final Hour (New York: Basic Books, 2003)] has given our species no better than a 50 percent chance of surviving this century. While his prognostications are nothing more than educated guesswork, they are worth taking seriously. The man is not a crank."

I read some of it, and some of Dawkins' "God Delusion." But when you were raised Catholic, they all ring repetitive - of so many thoughts you had so many years ago. If you didn't recognize the farce of organized religion before 12, you weren't paying attention or had already mastered internal suspension of disbelief.

I believe there's some force that started everything in some cosmic sense we're not wired to understand, based on rational considerations (simply assuming as a matter of physics, something can't come from nothing). Whatever it is, it's not interested in us. That's where Harris annoys me. He seems to insist there's nothing, not even an energy running through the universe along the lines of what Druids or Native Americans "worshipped." I'd like to think there's some force beyond my comprehension...

And that it doesn't give a damn about me.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Adder
Well, it was you, Spanky, Club or Penske. Most likely Penske or you.

But whatever. I agree with you that she has a right to her outrage. She even has a right to turn her outrage into political activism, should she choose to do so. Some around her do not extend that level of respect to Cindy Sheehan. I am glad to hear you are not one of them.

Cindy Sheehan has a right to her outrage, and to the extent she has exhibited it in a childish fashion and become far too enamored with the process of protest and maximization of media attention to appear at all sincere, I have the right to laugh at her, and think her alternatively a fool and whore.

And I have the right to think that you're a naive simp with the politics of a 15 year old who's just discovered Che Guevera or read Rage Against the Machine's album lyrics while he was baked for getting her back.

I'm not being a 70s throwback, and I'm not simplifying anything when I mock that treacly pap you posted about that Criagslist stuff last night. I think your politics are vacant and simple, and informed more by ideology than rational consideration. So I treat them as such.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by ironweed
... thereby fulfilling the promise of the worldwide interweb as a bastion of free speech, cheap jibes and half-assed bullshit.

and porn.

[Adder]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I was showing why your argument was stupid.

So then you were agreeing with Penske that a soldier's views on the war could be inferred from his re-enlisting.

Not that I generally keep score, but I guess that makes it Adder 1, Hank 0, if I was to start now.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by ironweed
Iraq = WW2 is so 2004. Plus it's only one step away from Saddam = Hitler, which in turn brings you within the penumbra of Godwin's and an automatic loss. I post this as someone who cares for you, and your very impressive w/l record on these boards.

Also, maybe her pain is different because she served as well and had the benefit of seeing what exactly is going on over there. Lots of WWII wives were spared personal experience of the idiocy, brutality, cynicism and waste that have featured in every single war since the dawn of time. Just a thought.

Exactly.

Let's see, what could be different? Maybe, just maybe, knowing what your spouse died for is a little preferable?


When my grandfather died at the Kasserine Pass, my grandmother at least quickly learned that even though he died in a poorly managed debacle, the US reevalatuated its approach, changed its methods, and won the next battle on the same ground. He didn't die in vain. And she knew why we were there, and the explanation for why it was worth it grew stronger, not weaker, as the war wore on.

Imagine losing your spouse to a poorly managed debacle from which the Pentagon refuses to learn? In a war that has no clear justification other than some poorly thought out, ideologically motiviated jinogism?

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Thought I'd recommend Sam Harris' book to you, if you hadn't already read it.

"Faith is what credulity becomes when it finally achives escape velocity from the constraints of terrestrial discourse - constraints like reasonableness, internal coherence, civility, and candor."

- Sam Harris, The End of Faith, p. 65


Damn, Sam. Tell us how you really feel.

***

I came across this book and didn't really expect much of it. I figured that I'd experience another simplistic pro-atheism argument, where since faith can't be proven, it's all nonsense.

Though I'm only in the midst of it, Harris' argument seems more than that. Beyond the logical problems with faith, his argument is essentially that we can't tolerate religion anymore because it's becoming increasingly easy for nutjob fundamentalists to wipe us out*, and that religious moderates are actually exacerbating the problem because their presence actually gives cover to prevent effective criticism of the fundamentalist nutjobs. As a religious moderate, I find this a disturbing point, but one that seems compelling.

I'm not sure I buy the argument yet, but then again I'm only a part of the way through the book. So far, though, I can report that Harris writes quite well, and makes a good argument. Even if I don't recommend the ultimate conclusion, I do recommend the book.

Gattigap





* From the footnotes: "M. Rees, [ in Our Final Hour (New York: Basic Books, 2003)] has given our species no better than a 50 percent chance of surviving this century. While his prognostications are nothing more than educated guesswork, they are worth taking seriously. The man is not a crank."

You read big important books like this? I'm currently reading a Nirvana biography.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Cindy Sheehan has a right to her outrage, and to the extent she has exhibited it in a childish fashion and become far too enamored with the process of protest and maximization of media attention to appear at all sincere, I have the right to laugh at her, and think her alternatively a fool and whore.

And I have the right to think that you're a naive simp with the politics of a 15 year old who's just discovered Che Guevera or read Rage Against the Machine's album lyrics while he was baked for getting her back.

I'm not being a 70s throwback, and I'm not simplifying anything when I mock that treacly pap you posted about that Criagslist stuff last night. I think your politics are vacant and simple, and informed more by ideology than rational consideration. So I treat them as such.

The pointless cynicism and nihilism is more an 80s than a 70s throwback - forgive the boy, he sometimes confuses his history.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Exactly.

In a war that has no clear justification other than some poorly thought out, ideologically motiviated jinogism?

Oh I think you are way off here. Forget about the justifications that have been given. There are several significant justifications for this war from a geo-politial standpoint.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
The pointless cynicism and nihilism is more an 80s than a 70s throwback - forgive the boy, he sometimes confuses his history.

And that makes your self-delusion that either party holds anything close to the solution what exactly?

I'm at least willing to bet it all on the marketplace. I'd go with Uncle Milty all the way if I could. I actually believe people, if allowed to bahave as they would in a true marketplace, would do some remarkable things.

What do you believe? What's your solution? Barack's platitudes? Sheehan's aimless melodramatic posturing? Hill's universal health care?

Why don't you do three things. First, tell me what you'd do to fix things. Then, tell me which of the candidates would do what you want. Third, tell me - rationally - why I ought to buy into any ideology or candidate currently offered.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Oh I think you are way off here. Forget about the justifications that have been given. There are several significant justifications for this war from a geo-politial standpoint.

Besides disagreeing with you on this (they all fall apart under analysis - what we're doing is more helpful to Iran's geopolitical goals than ours), I don't think this is very comforting to the bereaved spouse.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy

Imagine losing your spouse to a poorly managed debacle from which the Pentagon refuses to learn? In a war that has no clear justification other than some poorly thought out, ideologically motiviated jinogism?

If we don't have ideology, what do we have? Nihilism? Cynicism?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Exactly.

Let's see, what could be different? Maybe, just maybe, knowing what your spouse died for is a little preferable?

Since they volunteered i believe they can answer this one, better than you or I can.

When my grandfather died at the Kasserine Pass, my grandmother at least quickly learned that even though he died in a poorly managed debacle, the US reevalatuated its approach, changed its methods, and won the next battle on the same ground. He didn't die in vain. And she knew why we were there, and the explanation for why it was worth it grew stronger, not weaker, as the war wore on.

Imagine losing your spouse to a poorly managed debacle from which the Pentagon refuses to learn? In a war that has no clear justification other than some poorly thought out, ideologically motiviated jinogism?

I believe your "grandmother" story about as much as i believed all the clients you have investing in stem cell research.

Here is reality- the average foot soldier was drafted and hated the fact they were in a war. My oldest uncle just told me the story of when he was in England getting ready for the invasion. He and a few friends went AWOL on a long drunk- they figured what can the army do- they were already being sent to probably die in an invasion.

wathc the movie Focus, or read the book. It is a true reflection on how a large percentage of America perceived the war- a war for Jews arranged by Jews.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
Besides disagreeing with you on this (they all fall apart under analysis - what we're doing is more helpful to Iran's geopolitical goals than ours), I don't think this is very comforting to the bereaved spouse.

but changing tactics at the Kaserine Pass was? Huh?

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I actually believe people, if allowed to bahave as they would in a true marketplace, would do some remarkable things.

2.