Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck. - Page 331

bilmore · 10-26-2004, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Would this be that intelligence? You know, the stuff foisted upon him in the 90's during those - count 'em - 8 years he spent on the Senate Intelligence Committee?

This is not fair criticism. They only talked about this stuff at the meetings. How was he to have known about it?

Replaced_Texan · 10-26-2004, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Nice spin. Your papers rush this into print before learning the truth - that, in fact, the material was gone when we arrived - your candidate and his buds trumpet it for a few days as Bush's failure - the national "neutral" networks work out like this:

**ABCNEWS Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 4 Times
**CBSNEWS Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 7 Times
**MSNBC Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 37 Times
**CNN Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 50 Times

and now, when it's all exposed as an attempted October Surprise lie, your line is, we're off message?

Wow.

It's a good thing you don't have cable.

Secret_Agent_Man · 10-26-2004, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Don't know, but I suspect it's the lies about meeting with members of the security council.

You know Club, I read the blog passage you posted on those "lies" by Kerry on his meetings in NYC with members of the Security Council, and the passage did not seem even internally consistent.

In other words, I read the revelation of the "truth" as being basically consistent with the supposed "lies" in the quotes from Kerry. It really seemed like someone straining with all their heart to manufacture a story when what Kerry said was basically true (i.e. he did go to NYC, he did meet with members of the Security Council, etc. prior to the vote on the Iraq resolutions.)

No serious person could consider that to be a "lie" -- much less think that it would or should hurt his campaign as an "October Surprise."

S_A_M

Not Bob · 10-26-2004, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
So you agree that SH had WMDs then.

WMD is, as I understand it, a term of art. It doesn't include "a conventional explosive that can kill a lot of people." It means a nuclear, biological, or chemical weapon.*

Your rhetorical point is comparable to saying that someone acted in an improper way, therefore it was "malicious," and therefore the "malice" element of a cause of action was satisfied. (Actual quote from a judge in a case I had a long time ago on this very point: "I don't think that that word means what you think it means.")

*Things would be a lot clearer if they still used the NBC acronym, but I guess GE ("we bring good things to life") wasn't too happy about it.

Secret_Agent_Man · 10-26-2004, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Me
If a Rep had said something like that about a black woman in the clinton administration, the Dems would be screaming racism.

Not so. I imagine there were some sharp comments from the GOP about Jocelyn Elders, for example, but I don't recall anyone saying that her resignation was compelled by racism.

S_A_M

P.S. As an outsider who is, like everyone here, largely ignorant of the real goings-on inside the White House, I'll say it does seem like Ms. Rice has been an ineffective manager and has been shunted aside by more forceful competing figures, to the detriment of our national security policy.

Secret_Agent_Man · 10-26-2004, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Have you not figured out that this guy will say whatever he thinks the audience currently sitting at his feet want to hear?

Worked for Clinton, and we had 8 reasonably good years. Just wish Kerry was as good at it as Clinton.

S_A_M

bilmore · 10-26-2004, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
It's a good thing you don't have cable.

Oh oh.

New news since 8?

bilmore · 10-26-2004, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
Worked for Clinton, and we had 8 reasonably good years. Just wish Kerry was as good at it as Clinton.

Not worth it. Look what the strain of it did to the poor guy's heart.

sebastian_dangerfield · 10-26-2004, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Have you not figured out that this guy will say whatever he thinks the audience currently sitting at his feet want to hear?

As opposed to Bush? I always love the criticism that Kerry panders. Of course he panders. They both pander. Thats the job definition.

Shape Shifter · 10-26-2004, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Nice spin. Your papers rush this into print before learning the truth - that, in fact, the material was gone when we arrived - your candidate and his buds trumpet it for a few days as Bush's failure - the national "neutral" networks work out like this:

**ABCNEWS Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 4 Times
**CBSNEWS Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 7 Times
**MSNBC Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 37 Times
**CNN Mentioned The Iraq Explosives Depot At Least 50 Times

and now, when it's all exposed as an attempted October Surprise lie, your line is, we're off message?

Wow.

I wonder how many times they ran admin lies that Iraq had WMDs?

sebastian_dangerfield · 10-26-2004, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
This is not fair criticism. They only talked about this stuff at the meetings. How was he to have known about it?

Sounds to me like Kerry and Bush are evenly matched in being utterly uninformed.

sgtclub · 10-26-2004, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
You know Club, I read the blog passage you posted on those "lies" by Kerry on his meetings in NYC with members of the Security Council, and the passage did not seem even internally consistent.

In other words, I read the revelation of the "truth" as being basically consistent with the supposed "lies" in the quotes from Kerry. It really seemed like someone straining with all their heart to manufacture a story when what Kerry said was basically true (i.e. he did go to NYC, he did meet with members of the Security Council, etc. prior to the vote on the Iraq resolutions.)

No serious person could consider that to be a "lie" -- much less think that it would or should hurt his campaign as an "October Surprise."

S_A_M

Huh? He said he met with all the members of the security council pre-war. Many are on record saying they did not meet with him. How is the truth consistent with the lie?

bilmore · 10-26-2004, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sgtclub
Huh? He said he met with all the members of the security council pre-war. Many are on record saying they did not meet with him. How is the truth consistent with the lie?

I think I've figured this out.

When Bush makes a prediction, and is wrong, it's a lie.

When Kerry tells an untruth about past happenings of which he has personal knowledge, it's a mistaken past prediction.

bilmore · 10-26-2004, 11:49 AM

Just posted in the Corner:

“The Iraqi explosives story is a fraud. These weapons were not there when US troops went to this site in 2003. The IAEA and its head, the anti-American Mohammed El Baradei, leaked a false letter on this issue to the media to embarrass the Bush administration. The US is trying to deny El Baradei a second term and we have been on his case for missing the Libyan nuclear weapons program and for weakness on the Iranian nuclear weapons program.”

sgtclub · 10-26-2004, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bilmore
Just posted in the Corner:

“The Iraqi explosives story is a fraud. These weapons were not there when US troops went to this site in 2003. The IAEA and its head, the anti-American Mohammed El Baradei, leaked a false letter on this issue to the media to embarrass the Bush administration. The US is trying to deny El Baradei a second term and we have been on his case for missing the Libyan nuclear weapons program and for weakness on the Iranian nuclear weapons program.”

Looks like El Baradei failed the Global Test.