Fashion Board 3-5-04 to 4-6-04

[Replaced_Texan]

Dunno if anyone here reads Believer magazine. They're having a party tomorrow night in San Francisco.

• The Believer Anniversary Event
  On March 11, 2004, at 7 p.m. The Believer will be hosting a night-time event in San Francisco, featuring David Rees (Get Your War On, My New Fighting Technique Is Unstoppable, and the just published My New Filing Technique Is Unstoppable), a presidential campaign panel with Keith Knight, Joshuah Bearman, Susan Rasky, and others, moderated by Sara Catania. The event will also include Heidi Julavits and Vendela Vida, a wildly special and secret musical guest, and master of ceremonies Daniel Handler. Tickets are $10 and will be available at the door on the evening of the event. E-mail the poster to your friends and visit CELLspace.org for directions.

Also, if anyone's in Houston in the next month, be sure to check out the http://www.fotofest.org before you come. There are over 120 venues this year for Fotofest, and the event officially kicks off this weekend. Openings start tomorrow night, and this weekend is just one art opening after another, but the exhibits will be up until mid-April.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by bilmore
Counterpoint: I've been in enough sports throughout life to know that you can do incredibly stupid things in the heat of the game. I've hit people harder and cheaper than that, and I've been hit harder and cheaper than that. It was a retaliation for a past same-type offense that gave one of his teammates a concussion, so there's history there, too.

Yeah, it was stupid. Yeah, it was excessive. Yeah, he's an asshole. But, yeah, to a certain extent, it happens.

No question that in the heat of the moment, in a competitive atmosphere, you can lose it. But saying it was retaliation for a cheap shot by someone else seems to weaken your argument. No longer is it so heat-of-the-moment. Now it seems like he was waiting for the perfect opportunity to create as much damage as possible.

And this guy is 6' 4", 250 pounds, right? He hit that guy and he was out on his feet. I don't think you've ever hit anyone harder than that. You're not capable. And if you hit someone cheaper than that, I wonder what they did to deserve it.

TM

[Pretty Little Flower]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
whiff

I would like to believe that this is true. But you and I both know that it is not.

[SlaveNoMore]

bilmore
Counterpoint: I've been in enough sports throughout life to know that you can do incredibly stupid things in the heat of the game. I've hit people harder and cheaper than that, and I've been hit harder and cheaper than that. It was a retaliation for a past same-type offense that gave one of his teammates a concussion, so there's history there, too.

Yeah, it was stupid. Yeah, it was excessive. Yeah, he's an asshole. But, yeah, to a certain extent, it happens.

Yeah, but:

1) This was the SECOND GAME between the teams since the hit on Naslund. You retaliate right away, or at the very least, the next game. Going after the guy two games later at the end of a game in a rout is beyond bush league.

2) Earlier in the game, Matt Cooke of the Leafs already went after Moore and they dropped the gloves to fight. By the code that is hockey, it ended there.

Bertuzzi is cheap shot scumbag and I agree with Frei of ESPN -needs to be suspended at least one year

[NotFromHere]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Where do you draw the line between actions that are part of the game, although punishable by the league, and criminal acts. Plenty of what happens during sporting events would be far from legal on the street (boxing, fights in hockey, trench warfare in football).

I'm all for a lengthy suspension, particularly in this case, but worry about overzealous prosecutors reaching out after out-of-town athletes. (Think Zim would be free from prosecution in Boston?) Since it happened on the ice without any unapproved equipment (say a shiv, pulled out TO style), I'd say leave it to the league.

The cheap shot wasn't really part of the game, from what I saw - it was a come from behind, I'm going to do this on purpose and intentionally stay out of your line of sight shot. But suffice it to say, once you've broken an eye socket, or a neck, it has gone beyond "playing the game."

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I'm not at all surprised that you lack skill and accuracy at your chosen profession, jacking off.

Feel the breeze.

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Eliminate the Instigator Rule and shit like this don't happen.

Agreed! And while we are at it, bring in no-touch icing. As Don Cherry would say, someone's gonna die soon.

As for my two cents, I can't say I have ever liked Todd Bertuzzi, so perhaps I am biased. But he broke his neck, for god's sake. That cannot be allowed to go on. Kick him out of the game for good. Someone has to send a message. I don't mind a certain level of violence in hockey, but it disgusts me to see people trying to kill each other.

I suspect (or maybe they have already decided) that he will only get a 15-game suspension or something like that.

edited to change "day" to "game" and to note that I am a retard

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Where do you draw the line between actions that are part of the game, although punishable by the league, and criminal acts. Plenty of what happens during sporting events would be far from legal on the street (boxing, fights in hockey, trench warfare in football).

I'm all for a lengthy suspension, particularly in this case, but worry about overzealous prosecutors reaching out after out-of-town athletes. (Think Zim would be free from prosecution in Boston?) Since it happened on the ice without any unapproved equipment (say a shiv, pulled out TO style), I'd say leave it to the league.

I think the line is drawn when it's clearly not a heat of the moment thing. A cheap shot is fine. They showed a bunch of them on ESPN last night.

Hockey fights? Part of the game.

Guy getting nailed after he scored a goal? Understandable.

Brashear getting smashed in the head with a stick from behind as he was calmly skating up the ice? Unacceptable.

Bertuzzi's cowardly blind-side knock out punch and follow-up smashing of his head with all his weight into the ice when he was already unconscious? Absolutely criminal.

I guess the key for me is that if it is not at all related to the game in any way (and revenge for a cheap shot on a teamate isn't really part of the game), it should be prosecutable.

The league isn't going to handle this right. They've already proven that they can't, it seems. He'll be back on the ice before the guy he tried to kill is.

TM

[dtb]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I should make a list of the posters who have PM'd asking if it was them. fucking pompous sons of bitches, and no females- even pretend ones- when one of the duds was a woman.

You wound me.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I should make a list of the posters who have PM'd asking if it was them. fucking pompous sons of bitches, and no females- even pretend ones- when one of the duds was a woman.

So you didn't like Travis? Hey, I warned that it was wussy British stuff.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I should make a list of the posters who have PM'd asking if it was them. fucking pompous sons of bitches, and no females- even pretend ones- when one of the duds was a woman.

I am not a dud!!

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I think the line is drawn when it's clearly not a heat of the moment thing. A cheap shot is fine. They showed a bunch of them on ESPN last night.

Hockey fights? Part of the game.

Guy getting nailed after he scored a goal? Understandable.

Brashear getting smashed in the head with a stick from behind as he was calmly skating up the ice? Unacceptable.

Bertuzzi's cowardly blind-side knock out punch and follow-up smashing of his head with all his weight into the ice when he was already unconscious? Absolutely criminal.

I guess the key for me is that if it is not at all related to the game in any way (and revenge for a cheap shot on a teamate isn't really part of the game), it should be prosecutable.

The league isn't going to handle this right. They've already proven that they can't, it seems. He'll be back on the ice before the guy he tried to kill is.

TM

I disagree with you about whether the league will handle it right -- maybe I am a pollyanna (hey! maybe I should use that for a karaoke night name --- "Pollyanna De Sheers"), but they seem to be making all the right noises. And the British Columbia solicitor general's office (did I get that right, gwnc?) is investigating.

Marty McSorley's career ended as a result of the one year suspension the league gave him for his attack of Brashear, and he was also criminally prosecuted. (I think that he pled nolo to assault, and got a year suspended and probation, but I could be wrong.) I suspect Bertuzzi will be more severely punished -- by the Crown and the league -- than Marty was, simply because of what appears to be a more severe injury.

I think that Bertuzzi may actually do some time.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall


Hockey fights? Part of the game.

How's that? If two guys went at it in the stands like the players do on the ice, you could charge both of them with assault. What's the justification for exemption for players generally? Some sort of consent to be assaulted while playing? If that's the basis, then what's the difference between a cheap shot in a fight and a cheap shot like this one? That it was more cheap? Fighting is tolerated under the rules of the game--are there Marquis of Queensbury rules that apply, but not spelled out? It's okay to fight a guy, but you have to square off first?

Fine, change the rules, or make it clear that any violation of those rules subjects you to possible criminal sanction by the authorities. But an ad hoc approach hardly seems the right one.

The heat of passion distinction doesn't get you there. Plenty of fights are premeditated set-ups, not like heat-of-the-moment, post-goal cross checks.

The problem with your line seems to me that it's not clear when something is reasonably part of the game and when it's not.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Not Bob
I disagree with you about whether the league will handle it right -- maybe I am a pollyanna...but they seem to be making all the right noises.

I guess the question is, will the punishment set a precedent that curbs these kinds of cheap hits? I don't think he should be able to lace them up before the guy with the broken neck.

The punch wasn't so bad. But damn. Throwing all your weight on somebody who is on their way down at the point where their neck meets their head is just sickening.

TM

[greatwhitenorthchick]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
How's that?

The NHL's position, and I think this is somewhat official, (and I am paraphrasing) is that fighting is part of the game. (note this is not the European position). According to the NHL, people are violent. If you let them fight, the violence in cheap shots will go down (i.e. they will get their anger out through fighting and discipline will be enforced) rather than through poking and jabbing them with your stick and doing things you think you can get away with that the ref won't see.

Of course, this is bs, because the cheap shot antics go on as well as the fighting. But say what you will about it, at least it has an ethos.