Politics As Usual

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'm hoping to get back to your longer post above, but I note this:

Bad things done by Uruguayan and Moroccan troops in blue helmets = "the bad things the UN does"

Bad things done by US troops in camo helmets = the actions of a few bad apples, but not to be attributed to the country or the administration

I think it is so unconscious on his part that he truly cannot see it, even if it is set out right in front of him for the 12th time.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
How is that coming along?

Sorry - I misspelled organism on an FB search and my computer crashed from the number of hits. I'm putting on some coffee and I hope to have something for you in the morning.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I understand that there may have been more than just humiliation going on, but it is also my understanding that the evidence so far has yet to bear this out.

You haven't been looking very hard, then. Did you not see the photo of the guard cocking his fist to punch a bound and hooded prisoner in the head? That is one of numerous examples of photos that plainly go beyond "humiliation."

In addition, there are numerous reports, statements of witnesses (yes, I know -- there are credibility issues there but the statements are corroborated by the physical and photographic evidence), etc. -- including reports by the Red Cross and the Taguba report -- that refer to physical assaults against prisoners. These constitute torture (as does the "humiliation" under agreements the US has signed). There are also several deaths in custody currently under investigation.

You appear to be saying that unless you have seen photos of physical torture, then you don't believe that there is any torture.

Certainly Repubs have taken this view -- which is very convenient, not to mention dishonest and repugnant, when the same Repubs have argued that other photos and videos that show much worse torture of prisoners should not be released because that would "endanger the troops." Suppress the evidence, then claim the evidence doesn't exist.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Not Me
eta - the photos I have seen don't amount to a violation of the GC. If someone was raped or murdered, that does violate the GC.

Have you actually read the Geneva Convention?

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I think it is so unconscious on his part that he truly cannot see it, even if it is set out right in front of him for the 12th time.

Cut him some slack. He's been busy trying to come up with his Top 10 entry for this week.

http://www.cbs.com/latenight/lateshow/top_ten/contest/

[Gin Rummy]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Have you actually read the Geneva Convention?

We don’t need to read it word for word to know, quite simply, that is requires the a Nation’s Armed Forces in conflict to give honorable and respectful treatment to uniformed soldiers of the opposing Nation whom are captured in war.

Of course, what the left wing subversives in the democrap party and their comrades in the Socialist Republics of Eurotrash can’t quite get is that it does NOT call for transmogrifying Islamofacist terrorists, thugs, criminals and other lawless, nationless brutes to the status of soldiers of an opposing Nation. These terror mongrels are "illegal combatants" who do NOT merit the rights and protections of the Geneva Convention. To do so legitimizes their terror.

Horrifically, in the modern day world were the liberals pine for a One World Government the application of the GC to bin Laden and his pals and the chance to try W and Rumsfeld and Sharon as war criminals is the ultimate Leninistic utopian dreams.

Our false friends in Germany, Japan, Russia, China and France would care less about the GC if violating it served their purposes. But like their fifth column comrades in the UN and in the States, the Ted Kennedys and Joe Bidens and Dan Rathers, they scream for unilateral adherence by the US to the GC. Too bad the 3000 patriots killed on 911 didn’t have these great statesmen in their corner on that horrific day.

Perhaps a rethinking of the basic military strategy is in order here. One where America’s greatest enemies, the democrat party leadership and the mainstream media (except FOXNews) are neutered while we prosecute this war to its logical end. The fall of the Islamofascists.

Didn’t Lincoln suspend habeas corpus? The precedent is there if only W has the guts.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I'm hoping to get back to your longer post above, but I note this:

Bad things done by Uruguayan and Moroccan troops in blue helmets = "the bad things the UN does"

Bad things done by US troops in camo helmets = the actions of a few bad apples, but not to be attributed to the country or the administration

If you are going to continue take attribute ridiculous positions to me, it's no longer worth having this discussion.

Answer me this, when you read the headlines on the front page of the NYT, does it say "X number of troops engaged in bad acts in Iraq" or does it say "the US engaged in bad acts in Iraq."

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
You haven't been looking very hard, then. Did you not see the photo of the guard cocking his fist to punch a bound and hooded prisoner in the head? That is one of numerous examples of photos that plainly go beyond "humiliation."

In addition, there are numerous reports, statements of witnesses (yes, I know -- there are credibility issues there but the statements are corroborated by the physical and photographic evidence), etc. -- including reports by the Red Cross and the Taguba report -- that refer to physical assaults against prisoners. These constitute torture (as does the "humiliation" under agreements the US has signed). There are also several deaths in custody currently under investigation.

You appear to be saying that unless you have seen photos of physical torture, then you don't believe that there is any torture.

Certainly Repubs have taken this view -- which is very convenient, not to mention dishonest and repugnant, when the same Repubs have argued that other photos and videos that show much worse torture of prisoners should not be released because that would "endanger the troops." Suppress the evidence, then claim the evidence doesn't exist.

I haven't seen the pics you have mentioned. I've read parts of the reports. I'm not concerned with the legal definitions, nor am I that concerned with tactics. What I am concerned with is the process. If those that the US believed in good faith had evidence that would likely save American lives were beaten, I'm not all that bothered. If this was more of a "let's go beat a few A-Rabs" then it is absolutely unexcusable.

Incidentally, the reports I've read regarding the deaths suggest an element of self-defence was involved.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
I think it is so unconscious on his part that he truly cannot see it, even if it is set out right in front of him for the 12th time.

What do you expect. I'm just a stupid, rightwinger, who can't think for himself but instead relies on FoxNews, Hannity, and Rush to tell me what my positions should be.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Incidentally, the reports I've read regarding the deaths suggest an element of self-defence was involved.

No doubt, seeing as how we invaded their country and all.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/25/cl...ges/index.html

Aww, geez . . .

[juan, usmc]

Originally posted by Gin Rummy
We don’t need to read it word for word to know, quite simply, that is requires the a Nation’s Armed Forces in conflict to give honorable and respectful treatment to uniformed soldiers of the opposing Nation whom are captured in war.

Of course, what the left wing subversives in the democrap party and their comrades in the Socialist Republics of Eurotrash can’t quite get is that it does NOT call for transmogrifying Islamofacist terrorists, thugs, criminals and other lawless, nationless brutes to the status of soldiers of an opposing Nation. These terror mongrels are "illegal combatants" who do NOT merit the rights and protections of the Geneva Convention. To do so legitimizes their terror.

Horrifically, in the modern day world were the liberals pine for a One World Government the application of the GC to bin Laden and his pals and the chance to try W and Rumsfeld and Sharon as war criminals is the ultimate Leninistic utopian dreams.

Our false friends in Germany, Japan, Russia, China and France would care less about the GC if violating it served their purposes. But like their fifth column comrades in the UN and in the States, the Ted Kennedys and Joe Bidens and Dan Rathers, they scream for unilateral adherence by the US to the GC. Too bad the 3000 patriots killed on 911 didn’t have these great statesmen in their corner on that horrific day.

Perhaps a rethinking of the basic military strategy is in order here. One where America’s greatest enemies, the democrat party leadership and the mainstream media (except FOXNews) are neutered while we prosecute this war to its logical end. The fall of the Islamofascists.

Didn’t Lincoln suspend habeas corpus? The precedent is there if only W has the guts.

in reading this post and the invocation of Presidnet Lincoln, I am reminded of a quote of Lincoln's from the days before his presidency.

In 1838 as an Illinois state legislator he said,

At what point shall we expect the approach of danger? By what means shall we fortify against it? Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant, to step the Ocean, and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest; with a Buonaparte for a commander, could not by force, take a drink from the Ohio, or make a track on the Blue Ridge, in a trial of a thousand years. At what point, then, is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer, if it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us. It cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time, or die by suicide.

How sad that the transatlantic giant Lincoln declared would never come here was but 19 men, although as he predicted the killers came from within. They preyed on the weakness that certain members of our ruling class perpetuated. Now those same people try to subvert the President in wartime to finish the suicide. Lincoln must surely be gyrating in his tomb.

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by juan, usmc
in reading this post and the invocation of Presidnet Lincoln, I am reminded of a quote of Lincoln's from the days before his presidency.

Lincoln . . . wasn't he one of the guys who did less for human rights than GWB? And considering the low bar this Lincoln fellow failed to overcome, why should we afford his claptrap any credibility?

Take your weak-sauce Juan sock back to Infirm. That shit is paigow.

[Not Me]

Originally posted by Gattigap
There are ample ones depicting grinning GIs over the obviously dead bodies of prisoners. (spree: article about them, not the pics themselves.)

I take it that this is "suggestive" of GC violations only, however, and therefore not worthy of your condemnation. May be worth a giggle or two, though.

Is grinning over a dead body a violation of the GC?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
The torture took place (primarily, as far as we know) in the one wing of the one prison where high-intelligence value prisoners were concentrated.

Shit negro, why didn't you say so. nuff said. beating was cool if they were people who knew shit. Ty and Atticus said they were just run of the mill numbskulls, so torture was not in order. i'm glad you're back.