The babyjesuschristsuperstar on Board: filling the moral void of Clinton’s legacy

[Spanky]

Originally posted by baltassoc
This would not be a dictatorship of the proletariate under Marxism. Perhaps under Leninism.

I think you are wrong here. Not sure but pretty sure. In Das Kapital I think Marx pointed out that an intellectual elite would have to represent the workers interest. How else woud a dictatorship of the proletariate work?

Originally posted by baltassoc
I don't think we really disagree here, in the sense that you recognize that no country ever came close to the Marxist ideal of communism, which means that, given the expected timelines set out by Marx, 20-30 years out people could still be idealistic.

Yes true communism was never achived, because true communism mean not government. But where I think we might disagree is I am pretty sure every communist believed that you need to move through a dicatorship of the proletariate (and had to discard liberal democracy) to get there.

Originally posted by baltassoc Why not? My point was just that the prior government wasn't really better for the common man. Not saying it was worse.

I had heard the corruption refrain about other precommunist government but never Karensky's government. The only thing Lenin improved was he got out of the war (of course giving up the entire Ukraine to do it) but besides that everything got worse for the Russians after the Bolshevik takeover. Massive famines, outbreak of disease, massive executions, labour camps etc.

Originally posted by baltassoc
Exactly. It is temporal chauvanism of the worst sort, however, to judge based on our current conceptions of proper political structures. In the first 40 years of the 20th century, whether a dictatorship was better than a democracy for representing the people was still a matter of open debate amoung intellectuals. I have a hard time understanding it, but both communism and facism (not necessarily with the racist overtones) were popular topics of debate at the time.

I like that: Temporal Chavinism. But these people were promoting the idea of ending democracy. Throwing away the Bill of Rights. Destroying the American system of government. I don't care when it occurred, it was wrong and dangerous. I don't give Washington and Jefferson a walk on Slavery and I don't give these people a walk because there were plenty of people who did not fall for this B.S. If you flirt with throwing away the US constitution and ending civil liberties, don't expect society to welcom you with open arms.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by Spanky

This is what I asked?

Post #686


quote:
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Originally posted by Spanky
Would anyone on this board care if the US Congresss did an investigation into Neo-Nazis and other racist parties in the United States?

What about an investigation as to whether members of Neo-Nazi groups were working in the United States government?

What if they held hearings and interviewed the leaders about their activities?

If a lawyer defending ones of these Neo - Nazis was shown to be member of a Neo-Nazi party would people consider digging up such information as "smear tactics"?

And what if it turned out that some Hollywood writers, directors and producers may have been members of or were currently members of Neo-Nazi parties?

Would anyone have a problem with Congress investigating that?

If there was a suspicion considering whether a Hollywood writer producer or director was either a current or former member of a neo-nazi party and they refused to answer whether they were a current or former member of a Neo Nazi organization would anyone care if the studios decided not to hire them?

Would it be out of line for a studio to ask before they hire someone that they state that they are not, nor have ever been a member of a Neo Nazi group, and if they had been to disavow that membership?

Really. Who would have a problem with that?

Me. Yup, I'd have a problem. Heck, I'm a huge Bobby Kennedy fan, and I think that he was unfair to Jimmy Hoffa when he was a senate staffer.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Not Bob
Me. Yup, I'd have a problem. Heck, I'm a huge Bobby Kennedy fan, and I think that he was unfair to Jimmy Hoffa when he was a senate staffer.

Ok that is fair.

What about somone firing Lindberg for having Nazi sympathys?

BTW: I think both Lindberg, Joseph Kennedy et. al. were fascist anti-semetic pigs, and I wish they were brought before a congressional committee. Hitler clearly laid out his plans for the world and even America in Mein Kempf, so it is not like they could claim they didn't really know what the Nazi's stood for.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

I had a hard run, runnin' from my campaign promises.
I had a hard warring, warring, Lord I wonder if you care,
I had a run in, run around, and run down.
Run around the corner, corner, Lord run smack into Saddam.

I had to delude, really had to de-lude,
That's why if you please, find me some WMDs,
Murtha don't you come around here anymore.

Dressed myself in a flak suit, I went down unto the sea.
Didn't try to see what's goin' down, didn't try to read between the lines.
I had a feelin' I was god's messenger messenger messenger,
I turned around to see,
Heard a voice al callin', Lord you was speaking right to me.

I had to delude, really had to de-lude,
That's why if you please, kill Abu Musab al-Zarqawi,
Murtha don't you come around here anymore.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
I had a hard run, runnin' from my campaign promises.
I had a hard warring, warring, Lord I wonder if you care,
I had a run in, run around, and run down.
Run around the corner, corner, Lord run smack into Saddam.

I had to delude, really had to de-lude,
That's why if you please, find me some WMDs,
Murtha don't you come around here anymore.

Dressed myself in a flak suit, I went down unto the sea.
Didn't try to see what's goin' down, didn't try to read between the lines.
I had a feelin' I was god's messenger messenger messenger,
I turned around to see,
Heard a voice al callin', Lord you was speaking right to me.

I had to delude, really had to de-lude,
That's why if you please, kill Abu Musab al-Zarqawi,
Murtha don't you come around here anymore.

Please. We have to finish with the battles of 50 years ago before we can turn to today's.

[Spanky]

Where the hell is Penske? I was going to give him a pass but it has been too long.

I think because Ty was gone so long he thinks he can take a break also. Ty you set a bad example and now look at what has happaned. People think they can get away with anything.

From now on Hank, Penske and Bilmore are not allowed to leave unless I give them permission.

Someone else needs to worry about the left. Ty?

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by bilmore
"Undertaken"? You mean, like, "started"?

He didn't start it. It was going full bore from the Rosenbergs, China's fall, and the like. He just grabbed the train and walked up to the front.

My comment was referred to McCarthy's grabbing of the reins. I didn't mean to imply McCarthy was the beginning of the Red Scare. And Spanky's ride on this pony apparently proves that McCarthy's downfall didn't end it, either.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Spanky
I have studied communism pretty extensively. I have rad Das Kapital and the Communist Manifesto many times. I have read many communists authors including John Reed (I even studied for a while in Moscow while it was still the Soviet Union - ask Less for confirmation if you don't believe me).

In any event, you clearly don't understand the difference between communism and socialism. The communist idea was that capitalist democracies were not true democracies and the only true way to get to democracy was through a temporary dictatorship of the propletariate. That is at the heart of communist ideology. In order to get to true communism (a complete withering away of the state) you had to move through the one party dicatorship part. In addition, one got to communism in any way necessary. If it could not be done by democracy then it would be done by force.

When Lenin took over the Karensky government it was a coup. The communists were not elected. They overthrew a democratically elected government that had replaced the Czar. But according to John Reed and other American communists this was necessary because the masses were always dupes of the capitalist. In other words, the workers did not know what was good for them. The communist party of America supported the coup in Russia. ]Every communist in America in the 1930s knew how the bolsheviks came to power and supported the coup.

Yes the communist party fractured during the 30s because of the Trotskyte Stalin divide, but no faction ever questioned the violent take over of the democratically elected government of Russia. If you were a communist party member in the 1930s with a half a brain you supported the implementation of the dictatorship of the proletariate by whatever means necessary. If you didn't, youdidn't really understand the ideals of the party you belonged to.

Communists critisized socialists and anarchists etc. because they did not understand the basic tenet of the dictatorship of the proletariate. Communists scoffed at the idea that you could have a true workers revolution in a liberal democracy. LIke the Nazis, the communists wanted to rip up the "liberal constitutions" that kept the workers subjugated.

That is why so many socialists and labor unions distanced themselves from the communists. Socialists believed that you could have a democracy, a multi party state, and nationalized industry. The communists believe that in a multiparty state the Capitalists would always dupe the working classes and retain control.

This ideology is evidenced by the fact of wherever the communist party took over all other partys were made illegal. Can you name a country where a communist party took over where it did not turn into a dictatorship of the proletariate?

These peole that flirted with communisim (many famous writers and artists etc) all believed in the dictatorship of the proletariate. Otherwise they were flirting with something else.

For the most part, the American intelligentsia's flrtation with communism ended in the 30's as they began to realize the violence and totalitarian aspect of communism in practice.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by Spanky
Ok that is fair.

What about somone firing Lindberg for having Nazi sympathys?

BTW: I think both Lindberg, Joseph Kennedy et. al. were fascist anti-semetic pigs, and I wish they were brought before a congressional committee. Hitler clearly laid out his plans for the world and even America in Mein Kempf, so it is not like they could claim they didn't really know what the Nazi's stood for.

Depends. I would have a problem with him being canned by Pan Am (or whichever airline he was a consultant for) 20 years after the fact, based upon a threat to Pan Am of an economic boycott made by a group of anti-Nazis in charge of vetting airline executives. I would not have a problem with them canning him at the time because of his pro-Hitler comments.

eta: The distinction, I think, is that a blacklist takes the decision away from the employer. It isn't CBS firing Faulk because they don't like his politics, it's CBS doing it because they feared the loss of sponsors, who in turn feared the boycotts of AWARE's backers and of being accused of "funding communist propaganda."

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Not Bob
I would have a problem with him being canned by Pan Am (or whichever airline he was a consultant for) 20 years after the fact, based upon a threat to Pan Am of an economic boycott made by a group of anti-Nazis in charge of vetting airline executives.

I have no problem with this. In fact I wished it had happened. I have no problem with economic boycotts.

These Nazi sympathysers were just same as the communists. They knew exactly what the Nazi's stood for. All this stuff about them just respecting the economic recovery and law and order was and is B.S. They knew exactly the Nazis were antidemocratic and racist. Every reference to Lindburg in any history book should also reference the fact that he was in favor of throwing away the constitution by taking away the civil liberties of people he thought were subhuman (I don't care how many oceans he flew over).

BTW: Fascists and Communists are miles apart from Socialists. There is a huge massive step between wanting to implement a political ideology while still retaining individual liberties and wanting to scrap individual liberties.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Spanky
McCarthy did not accuse Fisher of being a communist.

You are now directly contradicting Not Bob, so I will leave the two of you to sort this out.

ETA: STP.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I'm more concerned re. Ty's admission he worked for the National Lawyer's Guild. Who promoted Slothrop? I think the people of Lawtalkers deserve to know who made this man. with admitted ties to communist front groups, a moderator?

I admitted that I wore their armband. I didn't "work for them."

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
You are now directly contradicting Not Bob, so I will leave the two of you to sort this out.

ETA: STP.

You are truly evil.

This is the quote I posted:

"since Mr. Welch has such terror and such a great desire to know where anyone is located who may be serving the Communist cause....we should just call to your attention that your Mr. Fischer, who is still in your law firm today, whom you asked to have down here looking over the secret and classified material, is a member of an organization, not named by me but named by the Attorney General, I quote this verbatim, "as the legal bulwark of the Communist Party.' He belonged to that for a sizable number of years, according to his own admission, and he belonged to it long after it had been exposed as the legal arm of the Communist Party."


In this quote I believe McCarthy just states facts. Do I have the quote wrong? If this quote is correct are their factual errors in it?
Bob?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I admitted that I wore their armband. I didn't "work for them."

You lent to them your moral imprimatur, your reputation, your support, your standing in the community . . . Worth far more than a few hours stuffing envelopes, I would imagine. There are no innocents in this.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Bob
I'm a huge Bobby Kennedy fan.

He would have been 80 years old yesterday.