Fashionistas you have arrived 3-25-03 - 10-3-03

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by ABBAKiss
I also hate the yelling and screaming and purposefully mispronounced speech often associated with ebonics.

This cite should interest you:

http://www.cal.org/ebonics/ebfillmo.html

More specifically,

I've been reading the San Francisco newspapers these last two weeks, and I see continuing chaos in the ways commentators choose to describe and classify the manner of speaking that is the target of the Ebonics resolution. The resolution and the public discussion about it have used so many different terms, each of them politically loaded ("Ebonics," "Black English," "Black Dialect," "African Language Systems," "Pan-African Communication Behaviors") that I will use what I think is the most neutral term, "African American Vernacular English," abbreviated as AAVE.

(1) Some participants in this debate think that AAVE is merely an imperfectly learned approximation to real English, differing from it because the speakers are careless and lazy and don't follow "the rules." It is "dialect," in the deprecating use of that word, or "slang."

(2) To most linguists AAVE is one of the dialects of American English, historically most closely related to forms of Southern speech but with differences attributable both to the linguistic history of slaves and to generations of social isolation. (For a linguist, to describe something as a dialect is not to say that it is inferior; everybody speaks a dialect.)

(3) And some people say that while AAVE has the superficial trappings of English, at its structural core it is a continuation or amalgam of one or more west African languages. The views summarized in (1) are simply wrong. The difference between the views identified in (2) and (3) is irrelevant to the issue the board is trying to face.

The Oakland resolution asks that the schools acknowledge that AAVE is the "primary language" of many of the children who enter Oakland schools. What this means is that it is their home language, the form of speech the children operated in during the first four or five years of their lives, the language they use with their family and friends. An early explanation of the purpose of the new program (San Francisco Chronicle 12/20) is that it "is intended to help teachers show children how to translate their words from 'home language' to the 'language of wider communication'."

Understanding this as the meaning of the phrase, it makes sense to ask if something is or is not some particular person's "primary language," but the simple question of whether something is or isn't "a primary language" is incoherent. The people who have expressed such concerns clearly think the term means something other than what I think the school board intended.

The Chronicle (12/20) asked readers to send in their opinions "on the Oakland school board's decision to recognize Ebonics, or black English, as a primary language." The San Francisco Examiner (12/20) attributed to Delaine Eastin, state Superintendent of Public Instruction, the worry that the decision to "recognize" AAVE could lead students to believe "that they could prosper with it as their primary language outside the home." An Examiner writer editorialized (12/20) that "[i]n the real world of colleges and commerce and communication, it's not OK to speak Ebonics as a primary language. Job recruiters don't bring along a translator." The Chronicle (12/24) accounts for Oakland's sudden fame as happening "all because the school board voted to treat black English like any other primary language spoken by students."

These commentators were clearly not worried about whether there really are people who have AAVE as their primary language. They all seem to understand the term "primary language" in some different way. Perhaps the term "home language" wouldn't have created so much misunderstanding.

The critics have also worried about whether AAVE "is a language." One way of understanding the question is whether it is a language rather than a mere collection of "mistakes." This seems to be the way Ward Connerly understands the question, and his answer is that it isn't a language. Another is whether it has the full status of a language rather than a dialect, in the folk use of these words mentioned above. This seems to be the view attributed to James Baldwin, in a 1979 article quoted by Pamela Budman, Chronicle 12/26. Baldwin thought it "patronizing" to speak of AAVE as a dialect rather than as a full-fledged language.

But on the question of whether there is a definable linguistic system, spoken by many African Americans, with its own phonology, lexicon and grammar (and dialects!), there is already a huge body of research. (For a useful bibliography see the web site http://www2.colgate.edu/diw/SOAN244bibs.html.) The question of whether twenty-seven thousand African American children in Oakland schools come from families that speak that language has to be an empirical question, not an issue for tapping people's opinions.

Thurgreed(the piece discusses further much of the debate over the ebonics issue in the Oakland school system)Marshall

[robustpuppy]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Speech habits that annoy me are insistence on using the absolutely correct term at all times, particularly if they attempt to force it on other people. For example, correcting people who call bubbly wine from California "champagne."

The most annoying speech habit to me is the failed attempt to be formal and resulting hyper(in)correctness, manifest on such shows as The Bachelorette and Big Brother, etc. The ultimate example, and one on which I've harped before, is Trista's saying "the bond between Ryan/Charlie/Freaky Stalker Guy and I." The misuse (i.e., the non-reflexive use) of myself also hurts my ears more than any regional accent could.

[Bad_Rich_Chic]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Best (Women): Charleston, S.C., or Tidewater Virginia. I'm a connoisseur of southern accents, and there's an eerie parallel between these two, at least among the upper-crust women of each region.

Odd. Those two accents are so different, but I see what you mean. I always focus on the heavy scotish sounds in the Tidewater. They nearly sound Canadian.

But, trust me, there are no upper crust women left in Tidewater Virginia. They got wiped out during reconstruction - the coastal S. VA aristocracy is now living in trailer parks and still farming pigs & peanuts. If she's from that Norfolk/VA Beach/Suffolk/Smithfield area and says she's upper crust, she's either delusional or a Yankee transplant 3-5 generations back (i.e.: definitely not upper crust, but not delusional just ignorant).

[ThrashersFan]

Martha indicted on nine counts.

Now who will make millions of women feel inadequate because they can't turn a melon into a fucking centerpiece in their eerily spotless home while making sure the cameras don't swing around and catch sight of the maids, cook, gardner, etc.

[purse junkie]

Most Grating: Long Island. It has a peculiar siren-whine quality that is just nails on a blackboard. Boston is up there but I am sentimental towards it for some reason.

Most Goddamned Annoying: Southern. It takes people so incredibly long to say ANYTHING. If I'm asking for directions and the damn Po'Folks is two blocks over, just spit it out for me please--why is taking five minutes to get 6 words out for Christ's sake? It makes some truly brilliant people sound brain-damaged.

[Aloha Mr. Learned Hand]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
Accents I find amusing:

(1) South side of Chicago: The SNL Da Bears skit is NOT a caricature. It is not hyperbole. It is dead on.

Coltrane speaks the truth. The hardcore Chi-kaw-go accent is an amazing thing. Most often heard in Bridgeport on the near South side, southern suburbs and the NW side, the accent crosses ancestral lines. You are just as likely to hear such an accent from people of Irish, Polish or Italian ancestry, though typically they share a blue-collar background...

Some notable examples:

Gratch - the place you park your car
Gratchky - the thing you use to open the place you park your car
da - the
Overbydere - where you parked the car, as in "I parked the car in da gratch overbydere."
samich - sandwich
Kaminsky Park or Sox Park - the former Comiskey Park
youse Guys

Hard to keep from laughing when you hear it, except the guys who sound like that are typically huge and/or liquored up...

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Mister_Ruysbroeck
I think I saw this comment in a review on Salon, but the conclusion was different. The reviewer indicated that the gimmick seemed like Lee's thinly-veiled racism in Do the Right Thing, but was a much more honest, self-loathing character portrayal in 25th Hour.

I think it worked better in 25th because of the final line in the rant where he gets down to what's really bothering him: himself.

I think that Spike used it in Do The Right Thing to show how far overboard people get in NYC when different people are packed tightly together in 100 degree heat with high humidity and no place to go. They often revert to the most base behavior and these feelings come out that otherwise remain hidden -- always leads to violence. It set the scene and properly characterized the mood, interactions among people and the feel of NYC in August in many neighborhoods.

TM

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch

Best (Women): Charleston, S.C., or Tidewater Virginia. I'm a connoisseur of southern accents, and there's an eerie parallel between these two, at least among the upper-crust women of each region. The languid pace, and honey-dripped tones. "Why, that'd be soo-pah." The drawn-out vowels are dripping in sex.

Edited to add: Coltrane is right; Savannah should be included in the Best (Women) category.

I can't speak to Tidewater, but Charleston/Savannah is right on. Though tied to the remnants of faded aristocracy, the cadence and rounded tones are soft to the ear and pleasant to the mind.

FWIW, I've also found that this accent among men is powerful when employed outside of the Mason-Dixon. When combined with a winning smile, hardened, cynical women of all backgrounds have been known to stand transfixed and then occasionally disrobe after only a couple of sentences.

This power, of course, is used sparingly, and only for the forces of good.

Gattigap

[Aloha Mr. Learned Hand]

Originally posted by ThrashersFan
Martha indicted on nine counts.

Now who will make millions of women feel inadequate because they can't turn a melon into a fucking centerpiece in their eerily spotless home while making sure the cameras don't swing around and catch sight of the maids, cook, gardner, etc.

Looks like they're getting souffle in the chow line at Club Fed...

On the bright side, she can now show her fellow inmates how to make lovely color-coordinated pastel pillowcase and bedsheet ropes for escapes in 30 easy steps. They'll really treasure them.

As a CEO of a publicly-traded company and a FORMER STOCKBROKER, its hard for her to claim ignorance of the rules governing insider trading. I would only advise her not to bend over for the lilac-scented exfoliating oatmeal soap.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Anne Elk
Boston. They manage to sound pretentious and retahded at the same time.

Agreed. My favorite regional accent is the upper midwest (Wisconsin, Minnesota, the Dakotas). Sarry. Brats.

I think it is funny when you get people from Boston who have been so ridiculed for their accents that they start indiscriminantly adding "r"s to words whether they have them or not.

[Bad_Rich_Chic]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Lotsa stuff

Wow. Cool post, thanks.

I had always thought the whole "it's not a dialect, that is disrespectful" thing was weird, but I take the linguists view so I understand why I was confused. I am quite curious as to what they mean by "primary language" or "home language" - if they mean "same language but the dialect (grammar and vocabulary: "you be fly") and/or accent (pronunciation: "axe a question") is so different from mainstream that understanding becomes difficult (e.g.: Indian sub-continent English), or if they mean "different language," comparable to Spanish. I know the debate was cast in the press as "they want to say it is a different language and get ESL funds," but I had the impression that was incorrect.

[leagleaze]

Originally posted by Aloha Mr. Learned Hand
Looks like they're getting souffle in the chow line at Club Fed...

On the bright side, she can now show her fellow inmates how to make lovely color-coordinated pastel pillowcase and bedsheet ropes for escapes in 30 easy steps. They'll really treasure them.

As a CEO of a publicly-traded company and a FORMER STOCKBROKER, its hard for her to claim ignorance of the rules governing insider trading. I would only advise her not to bend over for the lilac-scented exfoliating oatmeal soap.

A. I doubt she goes to jail, and am sorry I will now have to listen to a second round of Martha decorating her jail cell jokes.

B. Generally, in a female prison, one need not worry about bending over. What do you think is gonna happen? A big old bull dyke is gonna put on her strap on and do Martha in the shower?

[LessinSF]

Any accent where the word "wash" becomes "warsh" annoys the fuck out of me.

[Anne Elk]

Originally posted by Aloha Mr. Learned Hand
Coltrane speaks the truth. The hardcore Chi-kaw-go accent is an amazing thing. .....

Hard to keep from laughing when you hear it, except the guys who sound like that are typically huge and/or liquored up...

I was in Rochester, MN on business. After a long day, a long flight, a short flight, and a drive past a huge ear of corn, I went to the hotel bar for some food and drink. It was really hard for me to keep a straight face when the bartender started chatting with me. Felt like I was trapped in "Fargo".

Ah, gee, they were so nice out there by Silver Lake.

[Penske_Account]

Originally posted by leagleaze
What do you think is gonna happen? A big old bull dyke is gonna put on her strap on and do Martha in the shower?

In my wet dreams!