Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Anybody listening or watching?

I missed the first half hour due to work stuff that i couldn't get out of (i may or may not check out the Tivo rebroadcast if the Daily Show doesn't tell me everything i need to know), but it seemed that Kerry was a hell of a lot more comfortable than Bush until nearly the end.

ETA: I love jon stewart

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
I'm afraid that's about my take, give or take 4 points, and Diane stated the reasoning pretty well. In other words, I don't think he picked up undecideds.

Of course, remember that most of the people who are interested enough in this process to actually watch these guys for ninety minutes have long since made up their minds. The ones who are still wavering watched, maybe, ten minutes before flipping to the Frazier rerun. I doubt most of those people are going to pick up on the details you and Diane mention. They're going to leave with a quick, several-minute impression of speaking quality, and vote on that.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by bilmore
Bush can't do the public speaking thing for shit.

Kerry can, but has nothing to say.

So,

Presentation: Kerry.

Substance: Bush.


Kerry wins four points nationally.

point- the undecideds are undecided because they're smart and thinking. don't oversimplify this. bush should have killed- he didn't but I don't know that it changes that much.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
point- the undecideds are undecided because they're smart and thinking.

The undecideds are (generally) the ones who don't know who their own Senator is, vote when it doesn't conflict with their hair appointment, and think the Electoral College is where you have to go before you get your politician's degree.

(Yeah, there are thoughtful Undecideds out there still considering, pondering, and weighing. Seven of them, to be exact. None of them can get their friends to go out to eat with them anymore, 'cuz they can never make up their minds there, either. "Pasta. I want pasta. No . . . fish. I feel like f . . . oh, you have meat loaf?! Okay, give me the . . . no, wait, pasta. Or, wait . . . ")

[Adder]

well, I don't think any remotely objective observer could claim victory for Bush. I wouldn't call it a Kerry grandslam either, but Kerry was definitely more poised, and seemed well prepared for Bush's obvious and repeated attacks.

Bush, on the other hand, found the debate to be hard work. He may even have thought they his campaign picked the wrong issues, in the wrong place, and at the wrong time. Further, he sent mexed missages about North Korean.

But in all seriousness, Kerry addressed some of the things he needed to address, while Bush looked annoyed and angry. Advantage Kerry.

Of course, what is even more important is the spin, and CNN was downright shameful. Their analysts clearly prepared their comments on the basis of what they were told Bush was going to say ahead of time. They repeatedly proclaimed that Bush said something he simply had not said. He may have wanted to say it, and he may have meant it, but he objective did not utter the words. We'll see how the rest of the "liberal" press does tomorrow.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Adder
Further, he sent mexed missages about North Korean.

You watched the debate that was on TV tonight, right?

(Good lord, that was the one thing he was the MOST focused and on-target with.)

But, seriously, you got the DNC e-mail earlier, right? Have you been out there taking all the listed on-line "winner" polls, writing your letters and posts about how Kerry rocked (oh, yeah, here you are), and calling your radio shows?

[Adder]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
point- the undecideds are undecided because they're smart and thinking.

You really think that? You don't think the undecideds are undecided because they are ambivalent about politics?

[Adder]

Originally posted by bilmore
You watched the debate that was on TV tonight, right?

Yeah... I just needed something to go after the mexed missages line...

Although one could argue that both candidates sent mixed messages about North Korea given that they argued inconsistent messages for NK and Iraq.

[SlaveNoMore]

bilmore
The undecideds are (generally) the ones who don't know who their own Senator is, vote when it doesn't conflict with their hair appointment, and think the Electoral College is where you have to go before you get your politician's degree.

(Yeah, there are thoughtful Undecideds out there still considering, pondering, and weighing. Seven of them, to be exact. None of them can get their friends to go out to eat with them anymore, 'cuz they can never make up their minds there, either. "Pasta. I want pasta. No . . . fish. I feel like f . . . oh, you have meat loaf?! Okay, give me the . . . no, wait, pasta. Or, wait . . . ")

The orange face, manicure and arm-waving are a helluva lot more likely to impact the "undecideds" than anything either of these schmoes said.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by bilmore
Bush can't do the public speaking thing for shit.

Kerry can, but has nothing to say.

So,

Presentation: Kerry.

Substance: Bush.


Kerry wins four points nationally.

Dick Morris just made the same point. Wait are you Dick Morris? Ages match up right? Hmmmmm.

[SlaveNoMore]

Adder
well, I don't think any remotely objective observer could claim victory for Bush. I wouldn't call it a Kerry grandslam either, but Kerry was definitely more poised, and seemed well prepared for Bush's obvious and repeated attacks.

\

Grandslam. I wouldn't even call it a Kerry win.

The only problem for me is that Bush didn't kill him - and he should have. Kerry left him so many openings, I was begging to call in on a life-line.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
The orange face, manicure and arm-waving are a helluva lot more likely to impact the "undecideds" than anything either of these schmoes said.

I liked the new haircut.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Adder
Although one could argue that both candidates sent mixed messages about North Korea given that they argued inconsistent messages for NK and Iraq.

My favorite line was when they asked Kerry if he wanted bi-lateral or multilateral talks with NK. Has said he wanted "both." That sums up my view on JK.

[Adder]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Dick Morris just made the same point. Wait are you Dick Morris? Ages match up right? Hmmmmm.

I did just see someone on PBS say that Bush scored points by actually knowing the names of foreign leaders this time around. Talk about yer soft bigotry for low expectations....

That said, I think substance is almost impossible to assess without letting your personal biases get in the way. I would say Kerry was a clear winner on substance, but then I thought that ahead of time. Neither candidate said anything substantively suprising.

I think style is a bit less substantive, and I agree with Bilmore that i think this was a win for Kerry.

For what it is worth, six of six "undecideds" on CBS picked Kerry as the winner.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Adder
Although one could argue that both candidates sent mixed messages about North Korea given that they argued inconsistent messages for NK and Iraq.

My take (completely partisan, of course), was that Bush is saying "you keep telling the world that my problem in Iraq is that I skipped the international route, but here I am in NK trying just such a route, because I happen to think it will work better in this situation, and you're complaining about that, too."

(P.S. New news tonight:

US, China back North Korea talks

The US and China have said they were confident North Korea will return to six-party talks to end the stand-off over Pyongyang's nuclear programmes.
US State Secretary Colin Powell said after talks with Chinese Foreign Minister Li Zhaoxing the format was "what we should be concentrating on".

Mr Li described the talks as the "only feasible and correct option".

. . . .

With Mr Powell standing at his side, Mr Li said the "entire international community" agreed that the six-nation approach was the best way to deal with the problem.