Is Ted Cruz Satan? Discuss.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

And I guess it comes down to a question of whether risk minimization is true racism.

Like "legitimate rape," "true racism" is not a useful concept.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Fucking stop it. Maybe you selectively chose to ignore the words "everything else being equal?" Your push back on the mortgage example is ridiculous. If I earn x dollars a year and have x assets and you earn the same and have the same and we both want a house that is worth exactly the same amount, and the only difference between the two of us is the racial make-up of the neighborhood in which we live, the fact that you have a lower interest than I, is fucking racist. And it's institutional. Maybe they default with more frequency because their rates are significantly fucking higher for bullshit reasons. Read the studies about redlining. Hell, read the definition.

I did not say a lender could consider the racial element of the neighborhood. I offered a scenario in which he might use data regarding default rates on houses in the same area. My example was race agnostic.

You know that the quality of data is becoming better every day. I can find out how many defaults are on a certain block and hike rates based on that without even knowing the color background of the area.

Your second example is even more stupid. What fucking data are you talking about that suggests people with black sounding names tend to be less advantageous hires? What a ridiculous thing to say. Amoral risk analysis. Suck a dick.

I didn't say I had the data. It was a hypothetical. You think there isn't an algorithm out there already in use to determine who's the best hire based on name? Take a look at the data analysis tools even a slower tech company like IBM is offering.

I'm not getting personal here, so cut the "suck a dick" shit. You want to raise this stuff? Raise it dispassionately. I'm with you on almost everything you say. I hate the death penalty, the racist police state we have, and think society generally fucks over black people. But I'll also look at both sides of any argument (except global warming). You want to talk about this stuff exclusively micro? Fine. I'll discontinue replying to anything you offer on these issues. I have no interest in the human angle. I devolves to emotion, and then it's just venting, and venting is as useless as white guilt, or awareness.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Adder

Like "legitimate rape," "true racism" is not a useful concept.

Ah, the low hanging fruit...

You I'll tell to "suck a dick."

[sebastian_dangerfield]

I call bullshit. The black neighborhoods tend to be a greater risk, because they are populated by poor black people. That's what you're saying, and that ain't pure economics.

The algorithms don't see it that way. Poor white, poor black - a neighborhood with high defaults is just a higher statistical risk. This is part of the problem with big data. It provides cover for all sorts of policies with bad results. Hence, I think it's the most fascinating element of the discussion.

What's more, even if it's a bigger risk than lending to the nice white folks who are buying a second home in Door County, so what? Take the risk.

Why? A corporation is charged with maximizing shareholder value. It's all about the next quarter! And if you haven't noticed, the aim of almost everybody in our lending industries is complete avoidance of risk (or passing it on to some other poor shmuck).

Give people a chance. Chase makes enough money that it can afford to lend millions more than it does to minorities and people in lower income brackets, wind up eating every single one of those loans, and they would do better than one bad credit default swap.

Give people a chance? You're seriously interested in telling that to a megabank? That involves a long term commitment paying out years down the road. Nobody gives a shit about anything beyond the next quarterly.

Which is funny, because credit default swaps are based on the assumption that there will be a decent number of failures by large corporations run and owned by rich white people.

Rich white folks are comfortable assessing the risk of default among other rich white folks. We live in a bifurcated society. They don't know poor folks, at all, period. They don't lend against that which they don't know, and now they have the built in excuse - "Look what happened with subprime!"

As for the HR guy, I'd fire em just for looking for that kind of data. So maybe the black kid has a higher learning curve. Put in more effort, take more time. Make it better. Because let's face it, we both know what the underlying cause of that performance disparity is, and it isn't who worked harder in school.

The data will be race blind. Poor white people's names are also in the mix. Purvis or Mary-June isn't getting a mid mgmt slot at the cracker factory either. Of course, it'll discriminate like hell against more minority than white names. But it's just data, so again - the built in alibi is there.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I did not say a lender could consider the racial element of the neighborhood. I offered a scenario in which he might use data regarding default rates on houses in the same area. My example was race agnostic.

Well then you are intentionally avoiding the issue and have become the dumbass in the front of the class who can't wait to fight the hypothetical.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

You know that the quality of data is becoming better every day. I can find out how many defaults are on a certain block and hike rates based on that without even knowing the color background of the area.

Jesus Christ. It's like you can't hear anything you don't want to hear. If you are basing your decision on what interest rate should be charged for someone who lives in a neighborhood based on the ethnic make-up of that neighborhood and not traditional lending criteria like the individual's credit rating, you are engaging in redlining.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I didn't say I had the data. It was a hypothetical. You think there isn't an algorithm out there already in use to determine who's the best hire based on name? Take a look at the data analysis tools even a slower tech company like IBM is offering.

Again. Stop it. You are making up, in your head, some stupid scenario in which an employer has decided to build a model to take into account the performance of an employee based on the ethnicity of names. Why are you doing this? We already know that employers bounce people based on the fact that a name sounds ethnic and because of the bullshit stereotypes they live by. Do you not want to talk about that for some reason? You're not making any sense.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm not getting personal here, so cut the "suck a dick" shit. You want to raise this stuff? Raise it dispassionately.

No. And don't read my aggressive posting style as being overly sensitive to racial topics. If you say something so unbelievably stupid that I feel like I need to tell you to take a hike or suck a dick to point that out, I'll do it.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'm with you on almost everything you say. I hate the death penalty, the racist police state we have, and think society generally fucks over black people. But I'll also look at both sides of any argument (except global warming). You want to talk about this stuff exclusively micro? Fine.

What? Are you having a different conversation between the two of us in your head? I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm saying that people generally do not have the ability or desire to take a step back and see the larger benefits society as a whole would enjoy by doing away with inequality and injustice because they are too focused on what they believe they deserve and might lose in the short term.

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I'll discontinue replying to anything you offer on these issues. I have no interest in the human angle. I devolves to emotion, and then it's just venting, and venting is as useless as white guilt, or awareness.

Bullshit. Do what you want. But recognize that if you wimp the fuck out on the conversation because it involves race and I point out something you said is stupid, you're doing it because you're being sensitive to the subject, not me. My posting style is no different than when I say suck a dick based on some other ridiculous position you've taken that has absolutely nothing to do with race. I have not called you racist or even implied it once. Your point was so ridiculous that you deserved to suck on some dicks because you made it.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

Rich white folks are comfortable assessing the risk of default among other rich white folks. We live in a bifurcated society. They don't know poor folks, at all, period. They don't lend against that which they don't know, and now they have the built in excuse - "Look what happened with subprime!"

This narrative that subprime = poor is part of the problem. A subprime loan is one made to someone who is at greater risk of default. I think it used to be based on a bright line FICO score, but that has shifted.

The crisis created by subprime lending included tons of people, who anyone would consider wealthy by traditional criteria, completely over-extending themselves by purchasing shit they could not afford. That goes for people buying $4 million dollar houses who make $200,000 a year, people who invested in multiple houses they intended to flip because they didn't believe housing prices would ever drop, and poor, uneducated people who bought houses based on teaser introductory interest rates designed to make them think they could afford a house the mortgage broker, bank, and investment bank knew they could not as soon as the initial five years at 2% was up (or the floating interest rate shifted based on market changes). Everyone has reduced this very broad category into one in which the whole problem is now accepted as being based on poor people being stupid by buying houses they knew they couldn't afford. Don't be part of that narrative.

TM

[Not Bob]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

If one has designed one's life, consciously or not, in such a way that one will never come across a minority who is not in a service position, then maybe one should rethink one's approach.

TM

De facto segregation of residential communities (and therefore schools) mean that most white-bread suburbanites (I'm including myself in this category) have to actively try* to find friends who are not also white bread suburbanites.

*Sebby, perhaps "actively try" triggers for you an image of Adder awkwardly trying to discuss Stokely Carmichael at a law school alumni function with the editor of the critical legal studies law journal published by his alma mater who looks like Halle Berry** in "Bulworth" but I think of it as being more open to the possibility than anything else. Like affirmative action for friendship.

** Upon reflection, I'd be awkward, too. Wow.

[Adder]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

...Adder awkwardly trying to discuss Stokely Carmichael at a law school alumni function...

I'm deeply offended at the suggestion that I'd ever be found at a law school alumni function. You, sir, can suck infinite dicks.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

This narrative that subprime = poor is part of the problem. A subprime loan is one made to someone who is at greater risk of default. I think it used to be based on a bright line FICO score, but that has shifted.

The crisis created by subprime lending included tons of people, who anyone would consider wealthy by traditional criteria, completely over-extending themselves by purchasing shit they could not afford. That goes for people buying $4 million dollar houses who make $200,000 a year, people who invested in multiple houses they intended to flip because they didn't believe housing prices would ever drop, and poor, uneducated people who bought houses based on teaser introductory interest rates designed to make them think they could afford a house the mortgage broker, bank, and investment bank knew they could not as soon as the initial five years at 2% was up (or the floating interest rate shifted based on market changes). Everyone has reduced this very broad category into one in which the whole problem is now accepted as being based on poor people being stupid by buying houses they knew they couldn't afford. Don't be part of that narrative.

TM

Just to clarify: I'm not buying into the narrative. But it's there, and it's a big defense to relaxing credit.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally Posted by Not Bob

De facto segregation of residential communities (and therefore schools) mean that most white-bread suburbanites (I'm including myself in this category) have to actively try* to find friends who are not also white bread suburbanites.

*Sebby, perhaps "actively try" triggers for you an image of Adder awkwardly trying to discuss Stokely Carmichael at a law school alumni function with the editor of the critical legal studies law journal published by his alma mater who looks like Halle Berry** in "Bulworth" but I think of it as being more open to the possibility than anything else. Like affirmative action for friendship.

I just watched the Bond flick (Aim to Kill, Die Again, Again, or whatever the fuck it was called) she was in again the other night. You don't really grasp just how round those breasts really are until the backward diving scene. I suggest at least 50 inch, super-HD.

Anyway, your characterizatioon of how I imagine Adder going about it is spot-on. I envisioned this poor chick wondering to herself, "How in the fuck did I wind up becoming a love interest of Benjamin Braddock?

Oh, he's married? Whew...

Wait. How the fuck did that happen?"

[sebastian_dangerfield]

If you are basing your decision on what interest rate should be charged for someone who lives in a neighborhood based on the ethnic make-up of that neighborhood and not traditional lending criteria like the individual's credit rating, you are engaging in redlining.

I get that. But what if you're not using ethnic criteria? What if you're using default rates among properties nearby? Zillow already runs a search that can give you all nearby foreclosures. Imagine what commercially used algorithms can provide.

I'm not missing your point. I agree that if you base lending on ethnicity, that's racism. But what if you're just fucking over people in high default areas?

My simple point is, lending against property is not all about credit score and down payment. It's about ability to get rid of the bricks and mortar if there's a f/c. I think this can hurt a lot of minority borrowers.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally Posted by sebastian_dangerfield

I get that. But what if you're not using ethnic criteria? What if you're using default rates among properties nearby? Zillow already runs a search that can give you all nearby foreclosures. Imagine what commercially used algorithms can provide.

I'm not missing your point. I agree that if you base lending on ethnicity, that's racism. But what if you're just fucking over people in high default areas?

If you're not using the individual's creditworthiness to perform your credit analysis, and instead increase the interest rate based on the neighborhood's characteristics, then what are you doing?

If you're saying that houses in certain neighborhoods tend to lose their value more than in other neighborhoods, then all you're telling me is that your model for determining how much the underlying property is worth is incorrect.

If you're telling me that the average mortgagor in one neighborhood with the same credit score as the average mortgagor in another neighborhood has a higher default rate because of cultural reasons, I'm going to say that you need to prove that to me because it sounds like you're throwing bullshit at me to cover up a practice that is based on stereotypes.

TM

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by Pretty Little Flower

Like Sebastian, I too do not see race or ethnicity. Not because, like Sebastian, I am too busy to be distracted by these trivial details. I am actually unable to distinguish different races and ethnicities. I am post-racial.

So if you went into a Thai restaurant and the chef was a white hippie it wouldn't raise any red flag for you?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally Posted by ThurgreedMarshall

When I say white people need to give something up I mean that that attitude where they believe they deserve something based on the system they fucking created to reward themselves should be the first thing to go. Once that is gone, the mental approach where you believe you're giving something up in order to try to create a level playing field goes next. And then, when a black person gets a promotion in a company in which they are the only black person anywhere near the C-suite that a white person didn't, that white person may not view it as them having lost something that should have been theirs.

For sure. The day Michigan voted to ban AA I was at lunch with a guy with young kids. He told me he was pleased we were getting rid of AA. I said if we did that sucks (I think he expected me to attaboy him) and I told him about the circumstances of several young black men I know and how there was no way to claim they were on equal footing with my kids, or, someday, his.

He thought about it for a minute and said "Maybe, but AA also benefits the black kids of rich black families in Bloomfield hills." I told him the two I knew who fit that bill had 4.0 gpas, so not to worry. But of course that was me stereotyping too.

BTW the Universities' response to our banning AA was to look for "under-represented zip codes," which, here at least, would address my knuckled headed co-worker's worry.

Whenever I am involved in hiring and I have to fight for someone whose grades may be a little lower than the kid who went from great school to great school, I try to provide some context larger than the firm's typical myopic, grades-only approach. This kid pulled herself out of fucking Gary, Indiana, went to a not-so-great undergrad, and managed to get into and succeed at a top 30 law school. Do you know how motivated this person is compared to the candidate you want who has a gpa 2 points higher? Do you realize how much catching up she had to do based on the substandard education she got at her public schools? Do you understand the level of loyalty and gratitude she will have for the firm that takes a chance on her? If you take this other kid he'll be gone the first time you don't match Simpson's bonus structure because he just knows he deserves it. I've had this conversation time and time again.

2. My last big law was unknown 10 years before I joined. It was made up of people from Cooley (bottom 10 law school). At my white shoes firm there were NO Cooley grads.

The Cooley grads had a big chip on their shoulders and were hungry. They drove the firm. Not long after I joined it we were suddenly recognized as one of the top paying firm in the State. We started hiring U of Michigan grads. They were not so hungry.

It's a huge problem. Firms can't wait to say "There just aren't enough qualified black candidates." I think people have been trying to change this by investing in kids very early on and trying to lead them towards law school because the fix isn't to hire as many black law students who make law review as you can. The fix is to go to junior high schools and high schools and talk to kids and institute programs so that they know a future in fields of law they've never, ever been exposed to, exist.

For us I think it is this simple- black kids with an engineering degree are gold to the big companies around here. They get enticed by a nice paycheck, and do not go on to law school.

Yeah. This is why I go on rants about private schools. White flight combined with the emergence of private schooling and educational district-gerrymandering have created huge swaths of cities that have just been outright neglected.

TM

This is tough.

I know plenty of kids who were born in Detroit, but their moms busted themselves to get a suburban address so their kids can go to better schools. I get that taking the kids with motivated parents out of Detroit schools has a devastating effect. OTOH I do not know that I could fault any of them for wanting their kid to have a better chance. I mean, their kid is their kid, not a tool for social improvement.

[Oliver_Wendell_Ramone]

Originally Posted by Hank Chinaski

So if you went into a Thai restaurant and the chef was a white hippie it wouldn't raise any red flag for you?

Have you eaten at Pok Pok? This dude can cook Thai: