HP&tDH SPOILERS

[dtb]

Originally posted by Fugee
I went back to that thread and have to give props to spookyfish for noticing something that completely blew past me when I read the earlier books but ended up being a big plot point.

I also give props to RT's friend mircala for her predictive analysis.

I was looking for that thread. How did you find it?

[tmdiva]

Originally posted by dtb
I was looking for that thread. How did you find it?

From RT's link on the first page of this thread.

tm

[Replaced_Texan]

Some thoughts, not all thoughts, on Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.

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I guess the place to begin was the beginning. I know a lot of people were pretty much shaken by Hedwig's death, and so was I, but I was on edge before even that. It troubled me greatly, in the first few pages, that Harry was leaving behind his books and robes and Quiddich materials and anything having really to do with Hogwarts. I understood why he was making that decision, but it still bothered me a lot. Those things were important tot him. He wasn't leaving them idly at 4 Privet Lane, but it meant that this book was really going to be different than the rest. I realized that Harry had said that he wasn't going to go back to Hogwarts for his final year in the previous book, but I wasn't sure if he was going to be allowed to follow through with that promise. Someone, I could see, would argue that he'd be safer at Hogwarts than any other place. I almost wished that Harry and Hermione and Ron would go back to get his stuff and put it in her nifty little beaded bag.

From that point on, this was a pretty action packed book, and even during periods of rest, where several weeks were covered in a short paragraph or two, my heart was racing and something was happening. Getting Harry out, staying at Grimmold Lane, getting into the Ministry, touring the countryside, getting caught, staying at Shell Cottage, breaking into Gringotts, on the run again, back into Hogwarts, the final battle. There seemed to be no rest, no stopping. I would have been sorely tempted, had I been Harry, to stick around the Kings Cross, just to get some shut eye. I was actually sort of glad for the break to go to the dog show, because it was somewhat exhausting as a reader to absorb all that activity in one sitting.

I'm not even sure how to put my thoughts into order after this. I suppose in some ways that the overarching theme of this whole thing was Love beats Death, but I thought that the more interesting aspects of it were manifested not in the Snape/Lily thing, which I thought was pretty damned touching though not unexpected. I think that the Malfoys' love for one another really kept this story moving. Draco wouldn't have gotten Snape into the mess had it not been for the threat over his parents. Dumbledore would have eventually died, of course, but maybe with a little more protection over Harry for a little bit longer. I think that the Malfoys' resentment of Voldemort in the way he made them each hostage over the others destroyed their loyalty to him. Draco knew very well that it was Hermione and Ron and very likely Harry, but he also knew that their continued survival was the most likely thing that would slow Voldemort's ascension. Narcissa wasn't interested in anything but her son, and her love for Draco saved Harry almost in the same way that Harry's mother's love saved him 16 years previously. Her sister, on the other hand, abdicated all love for all human beings, aside for maybe Voldemort.

Lupin was afraid of love. He looked to the downside instead of the upside in marrying Tonks, then being with Tonks, and finally having a child with Tonks. He was horrified of the physical manifestation of his love for Tonks, and I was glad to see Harry give it to him over that, having been left by his parents. One of the things that did sort of bug me about the epilogue was that Ted Lupin didn't appear to be living with the Potter clan. I thought that Harry would have taken him in soon after his parents died, to ensure that Ted's upbringing didn't mirror Harry's. I did sort of suspect that Lupin was a goner, though, when he asked Harry to stand in.

Harry, too, is afraid of love in a lot of ways. He tries so hard to pull himself apart from everyone else. When anyone suffers because of something they've done for him, I think he tries to pull away further: George's ear, Hermione and Ron's decision to leave Hogwarts with him, refusing to tell anyone what he's up to. He breaks up with Ginny, twice, because he doesn't want his love for her to hurt her. Voldemort tried to play on that, which goes hand in hand with his "hero complex", by suggesting that Harry's reluctance to face Voldemort head on results in the deaths of people Harry cares about. He gets a lot of that from Dumbledore's odd notion of love, and I think Dumbledore gets a lot of his groundings in love from his own childhood. His family's having to hide his sister got him in the habit of keeping secrets, not telling everyone what's really going on. His guilt over contributing and maybe even causing her death because he put his priorities in the wrong place put him on the path to guide people instead of leading people. I think he also was reluctant to get too close to anyone ever again after that. Over his lifetime, Dumbledore lost a lot of people, and I think he held back a lot because he knew that mortality often would triumph over everything else. His obsession over the Deathly Hallows then makes sense because they could supposedly give him a tool to take on that mortality.

I thought it was very interesting that Dubledore was not among the ghosts people that escorted Harry to his own death. I think it's because the four escorts loved Harry as much as he loved them. I don't quite think that's the same for Dumbledore.

Voldemort and Love is interesting. He doesn't feel it, but he tries to manipulate it, like he did with Xeno Lovegood and the Malfoys. In a lot of ways, he's very successful at it, but I think ultimately, his lack of understanding of it fails him.

What else…This book was also a lot about obsession. It was interesting to see the twin obsession of Voldemort and Harry over the same thing, though to different ends. It was also interesting to see Harry's realization that he had to let go of some things and concentrate on others.

Small things:

I was probably unjustifiably happy that Harry got his wand fixed. I too had grown attached to it.

Neville rocked. I probably have paragraphs to write about Neville, and I think that he could have just as easily killed Voldemort once the Horcrucxes were destroyed as Harry. It probably would have pissed off a lot of people, but it probably would have overjoyed a lot too.

I hadn't worked out the Elder Wand possession issue, but I did know that Harry's death wouldn't be his death when I read the chapter on Dumbledore's last orders to Snape. His having two of the three Deathly Hallows seemed to me to be necessary to ward off the other one. It does seem, though, that Dumbledore leaves a lot to chance. I suspect that Snape knew that Harry wasn't far off when he was summoned to the Shrieking Shack. I even suspect that Snape suggested that particular hide out to Voldemort in order to more easily get Harry there. He also probably didn't allow himself to be apprehended until he was certain that Harry was headed to the shack. I also suspect that Snape had the Pensive memories ready to go weeks in advance, though a lot was cut pretty close.

Fred's death hit me hard, as did Percy's return. I imagine being trapped in the Ministry and desperately wanting to get out but not knowing how and having no one really to turn to for aide. Percy never struck me as having great personal courage, though he does have a lot of pride. He cut himself off from people who care about him. Fred's death as hard as it must have been for the rest of the family, must have been devastating for Percy, who was just making the effort to reconnect.

Dobby. I never really liked Dobby. I objected to his efforts to "save" Harry in the Chamber of Secrets, and I've held that against him since. But he totally redeemed himself as far as I was concerned here. Pretty damned awesome stuff, Dobby, and I sniffed mightily at his funeral.

The thing I was glad to see over time was Harry's ability to get past the Dumbledore fall from grace. It was ok, ultimately, for him to have failed at something, to have tragic and awful human failures. Harry kept on saying stuff about Dumbledore having been their age when he made his mistakes, but it didn't really occur to him that he may be going down the wrong path. Towards the end, though, I was glad to see Harry accept help from other people, accept that he may have been taking Dumbledore's tell no one orders too close to heart, expand the group that was allowed to participate.

The Battle of Hogwarts rocked, though I was desperately worried throughout.

Oh, god, there's so very much. And it's so very complicated, and it'll take years to digest and absorb it all. I'll have to read again and see some more comments before going on, but that's the preliminary stuff….

[Fugee]

Some thoughts, not all thoughts, on RT's thoughts on Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.

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Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
It troubled me greatly, in the first few pages, that Harry was leaving behind his books and robes and Quiddich materials and anything having really to do with Hogwarts. ....I almost wished that Harry and Hermione and Ron would go back to get his stuff and put it in her nifty little beaded bag.

This troubled me but for slightly different reasons. I thought he would need some of the information from his studies. Thank goodness for Hermione and her nifty little bag!! That's a girl who plans ahead.

My first big shock was when Hagrid fell from the motorcycle. JKR had been pretty blunt that people were going to die and I thought the tears were going to start early. I was really really glad that he was not the first casualty.

I suppose in some ways that the overarching theme of this whole thing was Love beats Death

I'm not sure this quite hits it because love didn't stop most of the deaths of people who loved and were loved in return. I don't think it is Love beats Evil, exactly, either. Something more like don't underestimate the power of love.

but I thought that the more interesting aspects of it were manifested not in the Snape/Lily thing, which I thought was pretty damned touching though not unexpected. I think that the Malfoys' love for one another really kept this story moving. Draco wouldn't have gotten Snape into the mess had it not been for the threat over his parents. Dumbledore would have eventually died, of course, but maybe with a little more protection over Harry for a little bit longer. I think that the Malfoys' resentment of Voldemort in the way he made them each hostage over the others destroyed their loyalty to him. Draco knew very well that it was Hermione and Ron and very likely Harry, but he also knew that their continued survival was the most likely thing that would slow Voldemort's ascension. Narcissa wasn't interested in anything but her son, and her love for Draco saved Harry almost in the same way that Harry's mother's love saved him 16 years previously.

I was dissatisfied with the Malfoy resolution. I was hoping the Malfoys would either get their comeuppance for being nasty people or make a turnaround and switch sides. That they effectively got away with being purely self-interested irked me. I need to go back and read the part of the battle in the Room of Requirements because Draco stilled seemed to be actively fighting with the Death Eaters then -- but you may be correct in that it was only because Voldemort had his parents.

One of the things that did sort of bug me about the epilogue was that Ted Lupin didn't appear to be living with the Potter clan. I thought that Harry would have taken him in soon after his parents died, to ensure that Ted's upbringing didn't mirror Harry's. I did sort of suspect that Lupin was a goner, though, when he asked Harry to stand in.

But Teddy had at least a maternal grandmother -- I forget if Tonks' father was one of the casualties so he had actual loving family to live with.

I thought it was very interesting that Dubledore was not among the ghosts people that escorted Harry to his own death. I think it's because the four escorts loved Harry as much as he loved them. I don't quite think that's the same for Dumbledore.

Hmmm. Hadn't thought about that. I'd just assumed it was more of a family thing (with Lupin being kind of honorary family through the connection he gave Harry with James).

Neville rocked. I probably have paragraphs to write about Neville, and I think that he could have just as easily killed Voldemort once the Horcrucxes were destroyed as Harry. It probably would have pissed off a lot of people, but it probably would have overjoyed a lot too.

I was really happy with Neville in this book. I loved that he found courage without Harry being around to lead him. He was a leader in the students' underground resistance and he defied Voldemort when he thought Harry was dead.

Fred's death hit me hard, as did Percy's return. I imagine being trapped in the Ministry and desperately wanting to get out but not knowing how and having no one really to turn to for aide. Percy never struck me as having great personal courage, though he does have a lot of pride. He cut himself off from people who care about him. Fred's death as hard as it must have been for the rest of the family, must have been devastating for Percy, who was just making the effort to reconnect.

One of the many places where I cried like a fool.

The Battle of Hogwarts rocked, though I was desperately worried throughout.

Oh yeah. Once again I thought she killed off Hagrid when the spiders swarmed all over him.

A couple other thoughts. I think the date (at least the year -- 1945) of Dumbledore's defeat of Grindevald is significant. VE-Day and VJ-Day were in 1945 and defeating an evil wizard who was into purity of race and ruling over the Muggles felt like an allusion to the defeat of the Axis powers. And the things happening in the wizard and muggle worlds in the book reminded me a lot of the rise of nazi power. Obsession with purity of race. People turning in their neighbors and co-workers; others lying to protect neighbors & friends (offering to claim them as relatives) and hiding them.

I also loved that Mrs. Weasley got to be the one to finish Belletrix.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Fugee
Some thoughts, not all thoughts, on RT's thoughts on Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.

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I'm not sure this quite hits it because love didn't stop most of the deaths of people who loved and were loved in return. I don't think it is Love beats Evil, exactly, either. Something more like don't underestimate the power of love.

It's not really about stopping death, but about being remembered once you're gone. Voldemort isn't going to have anyone leaving flowers at his gravesite. Dumbledore will forever, because people loved him. Maybe Bellatrix could be said to have loved him, maybe Barty Crouch, but I think it's more worshiped him, which isn't really the same thing. Voldemort was terrified of death, Dumbledore saw it as the next great adventure. It's why the Deathly Hallows wasn't going to mean much to Voldemort, even if he knew about them. Because there wasn't anyone he loved so desperately he would have wanted to bring back.

I think it sort of goes back to who walked Harry to his death. It was the people who really loved Harry unconditionally and who he loved in return. Dumbledore's love for Harry was also tied to his being the only one who could stop Dumbledore, and Harry sensed that (plus Dumbledore was probably getting the Kings Cross station ready. ). But, there've been a lot of other dead people in this series, Cedric, Mad Eye Moody, Tonks. But their relationship with Harry wasn't as laden with love.

I am sort of surprised Hegwig wasn't there.

[Fugee]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
It's not really about stopping death, but about being remembered once you're gone.

I'm with you. How about Love Transcends Death?

[tmdiva]

I'm not sure when I'll be ready to read this again. Maybe not until we get to that point with Magnus (we're in the middle of PoA right now).

Some random thoughts:

The animals, who had been so important in previous books (Hedwig, Crookshanks), were pretty much totally absent in this book. The animals we saw most were Patronuses (Patroni?). It would have been really cool if Regulus had been transfigured into Crookshanks, and then he could have come back and filled Sirius's shoes as an advisor to Harry.

I thought the Malfoys pretty much redeemed themselves. I was actually hoping for a little public acknowledgement from Harry that Narcissa had played a pivotal role at the end on the side of good. Sure, she was self-interested, but she also surely knew the consequences of her choice.

I also wanted to know, in the Epilogue, who Draco had ended up marrying, and what Draco, Ron, Harry, Ginny and Hermione were doing professionally. Loved that Neville is the Herbology prof at Hogwarts.

Speaking of Neville, what a stud! He really showed his true mettle in this book. I loved that the sword of Gryffindor escaped from the goblins and found its way back. Remember what Dumbledore said to Harry after the sword came out of the hat in CoS--only a true Gryffindor would have been able to summon it.

In spite of his continued reluctance to trust people and let them help him, Harry really made great strides in letting Ron and Hermione take their share of the burden. I loved that he had Ron destroy the locket, and then Hermione destroyed the goblet. They were much bigger players in this book.

The whole Snape/Lily story I thought was quite movingly rendered. I know Mircalla said that it would be hopelessly banal if love for Lily was what changed and kept Snape's loyalty, but I can't help thinking about how masterfully the whole thing will be played by Alan Rickman. I don't think it will seem trite at all. I also liked how Snape's memories gave more insight into Petunia's character. The fact that she desperately wanted to be special, too, fleshes out her resentment of Harry and makes her a less flat character (and yes, I also really like Fiona Shaw, and hope she gets a chance to come back at some point).

Yup, Ted Tonks (Teddy Lupin's grandfather) was killed. The thought of them leaving that motherless infant really hit me hard, and I think that's when I cried hardest (and George's maiming, Fred's death, the realization that the doe patronus was Snape's, etc. etc. etc. I'm a huge pregnant sap). I think it's likely that Harry and Ginny had played a larger role in his life than it seemed at the train station--remember at that point he was 19 and of age and quite likely living on his own.

I loved that we got more of the story from Kreacher, and I loved Dobby's self-sacrificing heroism, but I thought the house-elves over all were underutilized. With Kreacher's loyalty bond to Harry, and house-elves' superhuman ability to apparate, they could easily have used Kreacher as a messenger.

That's it for the moment, though I'm sure I'll think of more later.

tm

[andViolins]

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Some thoughts about the book. Well, some thoughts about parts that I didn't necessarily like.

1. Mrs. Weasley. I like how she came out to kick ass at the end. Almost in a Sigourney Weaver - Aliens type way. However, the sections about her keeping the kids busy before the wedding didn't really seem necessary. It never really went anywhere. I felt that this was a plot device that JKR was using to build up to Mrs. W exploding at the 3 - that she cares so much and didn't want them to die, etc. But it never really went past keeping the kids real busy. She came close at one point, but backed down and went back to the wedding preparations. We know why the 3 kids thought she was keeping them busy, but was that the real reason? What was she feeling? I got the sense that wherever JKR wanted this to go was edited out of the final story. That's fine, but the build up should have changed as well.

2. Tonks and Lupin. I don't think they needed to die. I understand that it was a war and war is messy and sad and that people die. Fine. Fred dying worked (IMHO), Moody's death worked. I felt that Tonks and Lupin was just overkill. (npi)

3. Snape. The one part I didn't like about the resolution was that there didn't seem to be a sense of reflecting by Harry after he looked into Snape's memories. He saw the past and seemed to automatically understand Snape and why he did what he did. I never got the sense that Harry really worked it out in his head.
I felt there was a huge jump from Harry finally learning the truth about Snape to Harry naming his son after him, without filling in the middle.

4. Epilogue. It is always nice to see "what happens" to the heroes in the future, but the whole epilogue just seemed a bit cliche. Its been done before - usually in movies. I don't know why, but when reading the epilogue, I had sudden visions of the ending of My Big Fat Greek Wedding.

I did enjoy the book, and the sign of a good story is when you can discuss it long after you've read the last page.

aV

[Fugee]

Spoiler space

Originally posted by tmdiva
I thought the Malfoys pretty much redeemed themselves. I was actually hoping for a little public acknowledgement from Harry that Narcissa had played a pivotal role at the end on the side of good. Sure, she was self-interested, but she also surely knew the consequences of her choice.

I'm going to have to look at this more. The big thing was Narcissa telling Voldemort Harry was dead. Earlier Draco had failed/refused to identify Harry at the Manor -- was this because he really wasn't sure or was he by that time pissed at Voldemort and not wanting to cooperate. And his behavior in the Room of Lost Things is ambiguous at best. He didn't want Crabbe to kill Harry but that's as "good" as he got and that doesn't quite make it to character redemption for me. I don't recall Lucius doing anything positive so I choose to believe that his ass was sent back to Azkhaban for previous crimes after the dust settled.

I did find it interesting at the Epilogue that Draco merely nodded curtly at Harry when they encountered each other at the train station. The earlier mutual loathing seemed to have settled down into cold politeness.

Speaking of Neville, what a stud! He really showed his true mettle in this book. I loved that the sword of Gryffindor escaped from the goblins and found its way back. Remember what Dumbledore said to Harry after the sword came out of the hat in CoS--only a true Gryffindor would have been able to summon it.

This was one of my favorite things she did with the characters. Through nearly all the earlier books Neville was so inept and always in the shadow of his parents. And finally he came into his own bravery.

The whole Snape/Lily story I thought was quite movingly rendered. I know Mircalla said that it would be hopelessly banal if love for Lily was what changed and kept Snape's loyalty, but I can't help thinking about how masterfully the whole thing will be played by Alan Rickman. I don't think it will seem trite at all.

I was surprised at this as the basis for Dumbledore's trust in Snape -- both that Snape had carried a torch for Lily all this time and that Dumbledore (despite his belief in the pwoer of love) would believe Snape would follow through. Maybe I'm a cynic but real love doesn't stop a lot of people from breaking vows and unrequited love -- or more accurately unrequited love plus guilt over getting the object thereof killed -- doesn't seem like a solid basis for trust. However, I loooooooove Alan Rickman and concur wholeheartedly that he will portray this masterfully in all of the 30 seconds they'll have time for in the movie.

I also liked how Snape's memories gave more insight into Petunia's character. The fact that she desperately wanted to be special, too, fleshes out her resentment of Harry and makes her a less flat character

.Agree. This was a surprising little treat.

[Fugee]

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Originally posted by andViolins
3. Snape. The one part I didn't like about the resolution was that there didn't seem to be a sense of reflecting by Harry after he looked into Snape's memories. He saw the past and seemed to automatically understand Snape and why he did what he did. I never got the sense that Harry really worked it out in his head.
I felt there was a huge jump from Harry finally learning the truth about Snape to Harry naming his son after him, without filling in the middle.

I had problems with this as well, especially because Harry hated Snape so much during school. I finally had to decide that it had been about 8 years from the final battle to naming his 2nd son and that must have time enough to come to terms with things. Still, it felt like a stretch to me.

[SlaveNoMore]

Fugee
I'm with you. How about Love Transcends Death?

I thought death actually had little to do with it, and it was ultimately and lengthy tale of love and redemption.

(eg: Dumbledore, Snape, Kreacher, Lupin, Percy, Malfoys)

Ok, initial thoughts:

the good:

Amazing use of multitude of characters.

Ultimately a dark book, full of sorrow and death, and yet with the "happily ever after"ending. Quite a nice balance.

Hallows mythology was immensely clever.

I like that she had each Horcrux destroyed by a different person (Harry - diary, Dumbledore - ring, Ron - locket, Hermione-hufflecup, Crabbe-diadem, Neville-snake and Voldemort-Harry)

---

the bad:

Concur on the pre-wedding: about 40 wasted pages

the Gringotts scene read like it was purposely scripted for an adventure movie (Need roller coaster. Hell, and a dragon!!!)

Still do not understand why cracking the ring "killed" Dumbledore -either as a Horcrux or a Hallow - while the destruction on the over Horcruxes had no effect at all on the other destroyers.

Same thing with the Malfoy/Wand connection. Something doesn't add up at all.

[dtb]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Still do not understand why cracking the ring "killed" Dumbledore -either as a Horcrux or a Hallow - while the destruction on the over Horcruxes had no effect at all on the other destroyers.

Same thing with the Malfoy/Wand connection. Something doesn't add up at all.

It was my impression that it was not the destruction of the ring caused his death (or the condition that would lead to his death) but because he put the ring on his finger (succumbing to the temptation of possessing the Hallows). I may have to read that part again, but that's how I remember it.

I didn't go back to read book 6, but what I thought about the wand/Malfoy thing was that the wand became Malfoy's because on the top of the tower, Malfoy disarmed Dumbledore (and thus became the wand's true owner, having taken it by force.)

I guess Voldemort assumed the wand became Snape's because Snape killed him, but before that, Malfoy had disarmed Dumbledore (at least, that's how I thought it happened in book 6).

[SlaveNoMore]

andViolins
2. Tonks and Lupin. I don't think they needed to die. I understand that it was a war and war is messy and sad and that people die. Fine. Fred dying worked (IMHO), Moody's death worked. I felt that Tonks and Lupin was just overkill. (npi)

Here's my thoughts on this - she had this planned these deaths before she wrote the epilogue in order to give Harry the godson.

Without the epilogue - you know have the family-less Harry now with a godson of his own to take care of, and you are left imagining how he would do things much differently with his own family.

With the epilogue, this complete "what if" is lost, and you realize Harry's spent the last 19 years perhaps focused on his other family.

I concur - it makes the plot point (and their deaths) and lot more unnecessary

[SlaveNoMore]

dtb
It was my impression that it was not the destruction of the ring caused his death (or the condition that would lead to his death) but because he put the ring on his finger (succumbing to the temptation of possessing the Hallows). I may have to read that part again, but that's how I remember it.

But others had worn it for years as a heirloom and presumably didn't perish.

I didn't go back to read book 6, but what I thought about the wand/Malfoy thing was that the wand became Malfoy's because on the top of the tower, Malfoy disarmed Dumbledore (and thus became the wand's true owner, having taken it by force.)

I guess Voldemort assumed the wand became Snape's because Snape killed him, but before that, Malfoy had disarmed Dumbledore (at least, that's how I thought it happened in book 6).

This makes a lot more sense. Oddly enough, I re-read 6 less than a month ago and did not recall Draco being the one to take his wand.

[dtb]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
But others had worn it for years as a heirloom and presumably didn't perish.

But not since Voldemort had turned it into a horcrux (or do I have that wrong, too?).