Meet your new thread, same as the old thread.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I dropped the POTY, and this muck keeps going? no kudos?

I thought the elementary school didn't allow that any longer.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Have you seen Sicko yet?

I may throw things if I see that movie.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If the Palestinian Authority becomes controlled by people who say they are at war with Israel and do not accept its existence, why on Earth should Israel send them money?

OK, if I acted as your agent and collected money from a rental property you own, and then you decided that you thought Dick Cheney was AWESOME and became an insane NeoCon, would that mean I didn't have to give you the rental money? I think Israel, not trusting Palestinians, collects stuff that's due to them. Kinda like how my aunt used to get money from the East German government, who collected it from people who rented property that somehow or other her family had before WWII and managed to continue to own.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
OK, if I acted as your agent and collected money from a rental property you own, and then you decided that you thought Dick Cheney was AWESOME and became an insane NeoCon, would that mean I didn't have to give you the rental money? I think Israel, not trusting Palestinians, collects stuff that's due to them. Kinda like how my aunt used to get money from the East German government, who collected it from people who rented property that somehow or other her family had before WWII and managed to continue to own.

piece of advice? at work when you are talking to your minions i would stay away from analogies to illustrate your points, because I don't think you have a strong command over them.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
piece of advice? at work when you are talking to your minions i would stay away from analogies to illustrate your points, because I don't think you have a strong command over them.

Oh, bite me, Hank. Am I going to have to put you back on ignore?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Oh, bite me, Hank. Am I going to have to put you back on ignore?

Hamas has as a stated goal wiping out Israel. Did East Germany hate your aunt?

Or are you mad because I made clear that you were not a friend to ncs?

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Hamas has as a stated goal wiping out Israel. Did East Germany hate your aunt?

Or are you mad because I made clear that you were not a friend to ncs?

Uh, you are the one who is more likely to say that the Soviet Bloc did want to wipe out the wonderful western world, and that the Godlike Ronald Reagan saved us.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
According to Jimmy Carter, only the U.S. and Israel are punishing Palestinians. You know -- the countries run by Jews.

(a) Carter is not anti-Semitic, and I think it is wrong for you to ascribe those motivations to his comments.

(b) What Carter said is absolutely true at its core -- though I understand why we might not like the _way_ he said it or like the fact that he said it.

The U.S. and others made certain policy choices to try to compel certain results in Palestine (hoping to either effectively reverse the outcome of the election or to compel changes in Hamas' policies), knowing full well that those choices would result in a whole lot of instability and suffering for the population as a whole -- Hamas and its suporters, Fatah and its supporters, and everyone else too. The cash was a principal leverage that we had, and we tried to use it. Period.

It didn't work well, because Hamas is who they are -- they won't willingly compromise or bow to that kind of pressure, and they thought (correctly) that they could get more political mileage from resistance and that the US policy would harden their support. And -- they are willing to see people suffer for their cause.

I'm not sure we should have done anything else, but you're burying your head in the sand if you think this is not true.

S_A_M

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Uh, you are the one who is more likely to say that the Soviet Bloc did want to wipe out the wonderful western world, and that the Godlike Ronald Reagan saved us.

wow. you are bad with analogies, but great with stereotypes. maybe you should write action movies.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
OK, if I acted as your agent and collected money from a rental property you own, and then you decided that you thought Dick Cheney was AWESOME and became an insane NeoCon, would that mean I didn't have to give you the rental money?

Probably not, but -- like Hank -- I'm not sure the analogy holds.

[LessinSF]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
We decided to punish Israel in the same sense that the sanctions against Iraq were punishing that whole country. IIRC, Hank has explained this concept here, so I'll let him analogize to Gaza. Our policy promoted a deterioration in conditions in the West Bank and Gaza, in the hopes that it would turn Palestinians against Hamas.

I think you have a problem thinking rationally about Carter, NTTAWWT.

And it worked just as well as the 48 years of embargo have against Cuba - an impoverished nation bitterly pro-Castro and anti-America. We seem to never learn that our "unintended consequences" or "backlash" seems the more likely event to occur.

That said, they had an election and they picked Hamas, but that doesn't mean Israel or the U.S. has to play footsie with them. Iran has elections too.

Just as we have to take responsibility for the joke that is our President, so do other nations. I, in fact, do hold the Palistinians responsible and have no problem "punishing" them, just as I had no problem with "punishing" Libyans, Iraqis, or Cubans. Populaces are responsible for their leaders, even militant despots - they couldn't exist without tacit support and acceptance.

Our "punishments" rarely work as a tool for reform, but that is a practical matter not to be confused with the principle of not rewarding violent or repressive regimes.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
It didn't work well, because Hamas is who they are -- they won't willingly compromise or bow to that kind of pressure, and they thought (correctly) that they could get more political mileage from resistance and that the US policy would harden their support. And -- they are willing to see people suffer for their cause.

And because even if the effect of our policies was to weaken Hamas a little, they still are a whole lot more effective than the corrupt band of thugs that is Fatah. We seem to have overestimated Fatah's political strength, at least in Gaza.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
OK, if I acted as your agent and collected money from a rental property you own, and then you decided that you thought Dick Cheney was AWESOME and became an insane NeoCon, would that mean I didn't have to give you the rental money? I think Israel, not trusting Palestinians, collects stuff that's due to them. Kinda like how my aunt used to get money from the East German government, who collected it from people who rented property that somehow or other her family had before WWII and managed to continue to own.

Maybe a better comparison would be when Jimmy Carter ordered the freezing of assets belonging to the state of Iran after the American hostages were seized in 1979. Or his cancellation of the delivery of weapons that were bought and paid for by the state of Iran.

At any rate, in addition, I suspect that Israel has a colorable argument that the Palestinian Authority is in breach of the agreement under which Israel collects taxes and customs for the PA, and that that is the formal basis for their continued hold on payments.

[SlaveNoMore]

Diane_Keaton
Um, yes. That is his full sentence. He said the U.S. and Israel:

1. decided to punish all the people in Palestine; and

2. did everything they could to deter a compromise between Hamas and Fatah.

I find (1) above to be a poor choice of words and the second part does not help. It is an irrational, emotional blurt that is embarrassing for an ex President to utter. This is also not his first time for slips like this. Lastly, Carter did not talk about "a policy that promotes a deterioration in....." as Ty so eloquently speaks. Carter, instead, said our country made the decision to dole out punishment to Palestinians. I expect him to choose his words more carefully, especially when millions of people will be talking about the U.S. President who admitted that the U.S. (and Israel) is out to get Muslims. That is my view; thank you for listening.

Diane, why bother.

These guys would defend Robert Mugabe if given the opportunity.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Diane, why bother.

These guys would defend Robert Mugabe if given the opportunity.

You gotta admire his honorary degree from Michigan State.