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Old 11-29-2006, 02:10 PM   #961
Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
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Quote:
Originally posted by Spanky
I thought Bush was trying to be nice an cordial by asking about Webb's son. He was trying to smooth things over after the election. All Webb had to do was tell the President how his son was doing and inquire into the well being of Bush's family. Instead Webb used the question to try and make a political point, or get into a political argument. Bush pointed out how inappropriate Webb's comment was. From my perspective, Webb was the clear jerk in this exchange.
Poor President, having to deal with a political point.

The Democratic Congress should draft the Bush Twins.
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Old 11-29-2006, 02:10 PM   #962
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Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
I read the story in the Washington Post, not The Hill. I wasn't accusing you of selective editing. (The Post story didn't have the part about Webb wanting to slug him.)

I guess I was wrong about your motive for posting it. Lots of conversational meaning depends on things such as tone and body language that we can't judge here. Still, I don't think Bush's response (as written) makes him look bad, given that he got a combative political response to a personal overture at a reception.

Webb has certainly made it very clear that he is not interested in being friendly, which is his right. (Didn't even go through the reception line or get a picture with Bush.) Sort of fits with his non-politician, non-diplomatic persona.

I guess I'm too polite for politics. One of my basic rules is that, when you're at a party, you don't say "FU" to the host.

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Exactly.
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Old 11-29-2006, 02:10 PM   #963
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Spanky
I thought Bush was trying to be nice an cordial by asking about Webb's son. He was trying to smooth things over after the election. All Webb had to do was tell the President how his son was doing and inquire into the well being of Bush's family. Instead Webb used the question to try and make a political point, or get into a political argument. Bush pointed out how inappropriate Webb's comment was. From my perspective, Webb was the clear jerk in this exchange.
:td:
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Old 11-29-2006, 02:13 PM   #964
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Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)

I think you're trying to have it both ways. If the Rs worked on getting the budget bills done now, the Ds would squawk that they ran through a budget with lots of cuts during a lame-duck. And if the Rs don't, they're shirking responsibility. Now, I realize it's a DC parlor game to set up such damned-if-you-do scenarios, but it's not particularly useful beyond entertainment while drinking a nice Zin.
Exactly.
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Old 11-29-2006, 02:14 PM   #965
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Originally posted by Spanky
All Webb had to do was tell the President how his son was doing and inquire into the well being of Bush's family.
"When I last heard from him four days ago, he was still uninjured, and I hope to God he hasn't been injured or killed since then. How are your daughters enjoying South America?"

eta: I guess none of you have had the experience of inducing tears by asking someone how their kids are doing in Iraq (or Afghanistan, in my case). Lucky you.
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Old 11-29-2006, 02:20 PM   #966
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
eta: I guess none of you have had the experience of inducing tears by asking someone how their kids are doing in Iraq (or Afghanistan, in my case). Lucky you.
all that and you also had that close run in with terrorism. you are such a dweeb. honestly. single handed board killer.

all of you guys who made fun of spanky on FB. go look at the "post numbers" list. 3 or 4 libs- issue specific burger, and spanky. all the other Reps you've driven away with the drivel you spew. if you find spank frustrating consider- he hasn't driven most of you away.
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Old 11-29-2006, 02:37 PM   #967
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Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
all the other Reps you've driven away with the drivel you spew.
Quote:
originally posted by SlaveNoMore:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spanky
I thought Bush was trying to be nice an cordial by asking about Webb's son. He was trying to smooth things over after the election. All Webb had to do was tell the President how his son was doing and inquire into the well being of Bush's family. Instead Webb used the question to try and make a political point, or get into a political argument. Bush pointed out how inappropriate Webb's comment was. From my perspective, Webb was the clear jerk in this exchange.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

:td:
Looks like at least some of them are here to maintain the high standards of Rep discourse we've all come to expect. And "dweeb"? Killer.
 
Old 11-29-2006, 02:38 PM   #968
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Quote:
Originally posted by Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
In other words, the Rs have shirked their responsibilities for years, so why stop now.

I buy this. That's why the Dems were elected to clean up the mess.
They've passed plenty of budgets before. You just don't like the way they've come out.

If you look at the table in the GAO document I posted, only three times in the last 20 years have all 13 budget bills been passed by Oct. 1. All three were in election years: FY 1989 (in 1988), FY 1995, and FY97. The party line up (Cong/Pres) was D/R, D/D, R/D, so I'm not sure there are conclusons to be drawn there. All the rest resulted in CRs past the deadline. I think the conclusion you could reasonably draw from this is (1) Budget process is a bipartisan mess; (2) As a result, when punting becomes likely, it happens.
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Old 11-29-2006, 02:41 PM   #969
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I posted about it because it was germane to the question you raised about which issues hit the table first. I took Collender's point to be that these budget issues are going to be presented early, and that they were deferred to permit conservatives to beat up on Dems. You are surely correct that Dems would be unhappy about the particulars if the GOP leadership had dealt with appropriations back before the elections. OTOH, having to make those hard choices might have cost them some votes, too.
How many votes could it have cost them? It's not like the Rs won anything in November.

What's more, you (or they) are still wanting it both ways? Do you want the issue or the power? Sure, Congress could have passed a budget by Oct. 1, and yes, the D's could point to that budget as having incorrect priorities. But, then the D's would be stuck with a budget they don't like until next Fall. They're already bent out of shape that the defense budget did get passed.

It surprises me that Democrats would complain about being given responsibility--are they simply using the next two years to posture?

If the budget isn't a priority, then extend the CR to April, and hit the other issues first.
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Old 11-29-2006, 02:46 PM   #970
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Everyone's favorite - the French.

I don't know why everyone thinks they're a bunch of pussies. It took balls to blow up that Greenpeace boat, just to take one example. And their football hooligans put Britain to shame.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/29/wo...pe&oref=slogin

November 29, 2006
Paris Soccer ‘Ultras’ at Center of Furor Over Fan’s Death
By ELAINE SCIOLINO
PARIS, Nov. 28 — They call themselves the ultras. They are the hardest of the hard-core soccer fans of France, the ones with the edgy reputations for being racist, right-wing, anti-Semitic and even violent.

For two decades, they have operated openly as fan associations without much interference from the police or soccer officials, who have claimed that they have limited authority to stop them.

On Thursday night, a group of these ultra-right-wing supporters of the Paris St.-Germain team set off a chain of events that ended with one of their own being shot to death by a black policeman.

The episode has set off nationwide soul-searching and finger-pointing as the French government as well as soccer officials, analysts and fans have confronted the violence and hate that have poisoned the sport.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the interior minister and a presidential hopeful, who describes himself as a fan of Paris St.-Germain, has vowed to clean up the Paris stadium, considered the most hostile in all of France, even if it means emptying it of spectators.

“We prefer to see stands that are empty than full of unwanted people,” Mr. Sarkozy told journalists, after meeting with soccer officials and supporters’ groups on Saturday. “We no longer want racists, Nazi salutes, monkey noises in stadiums. Soccer is not war.”

But there is sharp criticism that the government, the Paris St.-Germain team and the official fan clubs that support it have not done enough to curb the phenomenon, for fear of driving away fans. Fines have been imposed only sporadically for racist or violent behavior, and only a small number of unruly fans have been banned from stadiums.

“This problem has gone on since the 1980s, but there hasn’t been the political will to crack down,” said Dominique Bodin, a sociologist and author of a book on sports and violence in Europe, in an interview. “We’re a democracy, and there are laws on the books that have to be enforced. There needs to be better education of the young.”

The police knew in advance that the game on Thursday evening at the Parc des Princes stadium on the edge of Paris could turn ugly. The adversary was a team from Tel Aviv. Extra police officers were on duty.

The trouble began outside the stadium, as is often the case, after the Paris team was defeated, 4-2. Dozens of Paris supporters pursued and cornered Yanniv Hazout, 25, a French fan who is Jewish.

A 32-year-old plainclothes transport police officer, Antoine Granomort, who was guarding a nearby parking lot, rushed to shield him from the crowd.

“The crowd hurled insults — ‘dirty Jew,’ ‘dirty Negro’ and monkey cries — and raised Nazi salutes,” a Paris prosecutor, Jean-Claude Marin, said afterward. He added that they also shouted, “Le Pen, president!” a reference to Jean-Marie Le Pen, the far-right National Front leader who plans to run for president in the election in April. According to Mr. Sarkozy, some fans shouted, “Death to the Jew!” before attacking Mr. Hazout.

When the crowd began kicking and beating Officer Granomort and apparently threatened to kill the fan he was protecting, he fired his service revolver, killing Julien Quemener, 25, a home appliance technician, and wounding Mounir Boujaer, 26, a truck driver, according to several witness accounts. A fan who called himself Maxmax wrote Friday on an ultra Internet message board that someone shouted, “Jews to the ovens!” after the shooting.

Mr. Quemener was identified as a member of the “Boulogne Boys,” a group of far-right soccer supporters, some of whom are officially registered as troublemakers by the police and banned from the stadium.

A judge must determine officially whether Officer Granomort acted in self-defense, although both French officials and police union representatives have thrown their support behind him.

Not all agree. “I’m telling you, the cop screwed up,” said a witness to the shooting, who refused to give his name because he feared the police would put him under surveillance. “This wasn’t self-defense.”

About 300 supporters of the Paris team held a silent march on Sunday in Nantes in memory of Mr. Quemener, walking behind a banner that read, “Murdering authorities — truth for Julien.”

Violence, some of it racially motivated, is a ritual at soccer games throughout Europe, and some French sports experts say the phenomenon is more dramatic elsewhere.

Last week, for example, about 600 Italian supporters of the Naples team, throwing stones and pieces of metal, clashed with police officers as they forced their way through security barriers to watch a game. Three cars were destroyed and another was set on fire. One 25-year-old fan remains in a coma.

Complicating the situation in France is that there are rival gangs of ultras that divide along racial and ethnic lines, but all support the Paris team.

Last February, for example, members of a multiethnic group known as Tigris Mystic, some apparently wielding machetes and pieces of wood studded with nails, attacked members of an all-white gang at a gas station near the town of Angers after a match. Five people were injured.

But France, with its long history of secularism and official colorblindness, is particularly sensitive to racist, ethnic and anti-Semitic insults and acts, both on and off the soccer field.

The fact that so many of the players on French teams are either black or of North African Arab origin has cut both ways. (On France’s national team that played in the World Cup last summer, 17 of the 23 players were members of minorities.)

While the multiracial character of the sport has long been praised for reflecting diversity in France, some right-wing politicians have criticized soccer teams for not being white enough.

Two weeks ago, Georges Frêche, the Socialist president of the Languedoc-Roussillon region, was quoted as telling a local council that he was ashamed that so many of the 11 starters on the French national team are black.

“It would be normal if there were three or four; that would be a reflection of society,” he was quoted as saying. “But if there are so many, it’s because whites are no good. I’m ashamed for this country. Soon there will be 11 blacks.”

President Jacques Chirac immediately condemned the remarks. Mr. Frêche said his comments had been taken out of context.

Before the 1998 World Cup, Mr. Le Pen called the French team “artificial” because of its ethnic and racial makeup. Last June, before the World Cup, he said France “doesn’t totally recognize itself in this team,” because there may be too many “players of color.”

At a news conference on Tuesday, Mr. Le Pen accused Mr. Marin, the Paris prosecutor, of defamation for suggesting that he was somehow linked to the racism on display on the night of the shooting. He said he was filing a lawsuit.

Certainly, the message of Mr. Le Pen, who faced Mr. Chirac in a runoff in the 2002 election, resonates in France. In a poll published in Le Monde last week, 17 percent of the respondents said they intended to vote for the 78-year-old for president.
 
Old 11-29-2006, 02:59 PM   #971
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If I had a child serving in Iraq, and someone asked me how he was doing, I would think it entirely human to say I'd want him or her back home. That's not an alpha-male thing -- what parent would feel differently? And it's not a dominance game, since it acknowledges the fact that Bush, not Webb, is the CIC.
(a) The sentiment is human. The context of the conversation, the people involved, and the background of the recent campaign make this somewhat different. Webb also could have actually answered the question and tacked his "bring 'em home" sentiment on at the end. That would, actually, not have been rude of him.

(b) Ty, Ty, Ty -- the alpha-male dominance game they were playing was not about who wields more temporal power. It was about control of and showing cojones in their conversation and their personal relationship. Really. No doubt about it.

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Old 11-29-2006, 03:01 PM   #972
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
fuck Webb. He pulled that shit on me, I'd send his kid on a Saving Private Ryan-style death mission. "Son we need you to go into Iranistan, and steal me the baklava recipe from the Great IAtollie."
That's why you'd be a competent dictator, but a lousy President.

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Old 11-29-2006, 03:09 PM   #973
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
"When I last heard from him four days ago, he was still uninjured, and I hope to God he hasn't been injured or killed since then. How are your daughters enjoying South America?"

eta: I guess none of you have had the experience of inducing tears by asking someone how their kids are doing in Iraq (or Afghanistan, in my case). Lucky you.
So are you saying that Bush shouldn't have asked the question?
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:11 PM   #974
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Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
It surprises me that Democrats would complain about being given responsibility--are they simply using the next two years to posture?
Is this rhetorical?
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Old 11-29-2006, 03:28 PM   #975
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Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Is this rhetorical?
Is this?
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