Fashion Board 3-5-04 to 4-6-04

Originally posted by str8outavannuys
TF is a buck-toothed asian woman?
Hey, Nic Harcourt playing Ima Robot, Damien Rice, and a piano cover of "Everything in its Right place" - all within the span of an hour? Now THAT's Good Times. None of this "hangin' in a chow line" crap for me.

1) That first sentence is now your funniest post.

2) I saw Chappelle last night also. Nice try.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Bob
Sigh. I so should have listened to Dean Wormer.

Are you kidding?

(spree: sound)

[bilmore]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
There was no fat-bashing. The thread was about abrogation of personal responsibility. When certain people are told they should be responsible for themselves, they call it bashing. The "fatties are stupid" comment was clearly tongue in cheek. If you didn't realize that, you're obviously fat.

If we were making fun of people who pick their noses on the subway, we could do it with very little guilt about "bashing". That would be an act entirely within their own choice, a repulsive habit they could avoid simply by deciding not to do it.

If we were making fun of dwarves, we would instantly be labeled cruel and horrible people, as we'd be objectifying and belittling people on the basis of something they can't change.

Fat people seem to fall somewhere in between this. They're sort of at the stage alcoholics used to be at, where we couldn't quite allow that the status might be due to something beyond "they just choose to get blotto'ed - irresponsible fucks!". So, the tension lies in the fact that some comments come from the held truth that fat people should just toughen up and stop pigging out, and others are restrained by the acknowledgment that it's probably something more than that.

For the people who call it a chosen state, it's probably the most obvious and forceful sign of a weak character - especially in a society where looks and outward appearance seem to count for everything. Thus, the scorn. For people who think that weight has a strong genetic/social component, it's still troubling, because, without complete proof of that component, there is still a feeling that the person has broken the biggest rule of our time and society - "look good". If looking good can be so important to our society, then someone who "maybe willingly" breaks that value is seen as being in an antisocial stance. It's probably like someone who makes fun of reality TV. You can't be in direct opposition to the accepted social truths and values.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
There was no fat-bashing. The thread was about abrogation of personal responsibility. When certain people are told they should be responsible for themselves, they call it bashing. The "fatties are stupid" comment was clearly tongue in cheek. If you didn't realize that, you're obviously fat.

I think the fat-bashing is done b/c some people view it as an issue that the majority of people have control over. Mainly, you can't help it if you're ugly, but, unless you have a thyroid problem, it's probably your fault that you're fat*. I think randomly insulting someone based on ugliness (excluding ugliness due to fat) is very cruel, b/c that is something that the person cannot change without plastic surgery. Some people have claimed that they CAN'T control their eating and that, like nicotine, it's addictive. We'll, we "bashers" aren't buying that. Food didn't suddenly become addicting over the past 15 years. Moreover, before obesity was an epidemic, the obese person paid dearly for being obese through insults, physical limitations, etc. No one else was harmed. Now that it has become an epidemic, ALL of us are going to have to sleep in that bed that they shit in.

*Like I said, there are plenty of exceptions where the person does not have control. They have my sympathy.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by paigowprincess

2) I saw Chappelle last night also. Nice try.

Do you have a padunkadunk?

I must be really white b/c this was new to me.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by robustpuppy
First, your "abrogation of personal responsibility" line is total bullshit. You're making a moral judgment about people you don't even know. You presume that everyone who is fat pretends that they are fat for reasons entirely beyond their control. I haven't met these people who are in denial. I sincerely doubt that you have, I think you make them up when you quote them. You judge fat people before you ever even talk to them (in much the same way you dismiss stay at home mothers as vapid women with nothing to say).

Second, I obviously recognized that the fatties are stupid comment was meant to be tongue in cheek (and I think Not Bob did, too), but you have said that so many times before and clearly meant it sincerely, that the mere fact that it was tongue in cheek this time does not render you immune from being criticized as a fat basher.

Third, I really hope your suggestion that only a person who is fat herself would describe your comments as fat bashing was also tongue in cheek. If it wasn't, I don't care whether you think I'm fat or thin, because if you think that offense can only stem from personal insecurity about something, then that really does reflect poorly on you. I'd rather have people think I'm unattractive or unhealthy or fail to take responsibility for my weight than prove that I am unwilling to take responsibility for my own statements, as you apparently are.

Lemme clarify:

A. I am not attacking anyone with a glandular condition or genetic predicposition. I specifically limited my derision to people who find themselves where they are as a result of their own self control. Since these sort of people are indefensible, you enlarge the group to include all fat people so that you can call me a basher. You're tailoring the facts to suit your argument.

B. "You are obviously fat" was a play off on the "fatties are stupid" comment. Its OK. I miss a lot of sarcastic quips myself in this electronic medium.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
If we were making fun of people who pick their noses on the subway, we could do it with very little guilt about "bashing". That would be an act entirely within their own choice, a repulsive habit they could avoid simply by deciding not to do it.

If we were making fun of dwarves, we would instantly be labeled cruel and horrible people, as we'd be objectifying and belittling people on the basis of something they can't change.

Fat people seem to fall somewhere in between this. They're sort of at the stage alcoholics used to be at, where we couldn't quite allow that the status might be due to something beyond "they just choose to get blotto'ed - irresponsible fucks!". So, the tension lies in the fact that some comments come from the held truth that fat people should just toughen up and stop pigging out, and others are restrained by the acknowledgment that it's probably something more than that.

For the people who call it a chosen state, it's probably the most obvious and forceful sign of a weak character - especially in a society where looks and outward appearance seem to count for everything. Thus, the scorn. For people who think that weight has a strong genetic/social component, it's still troubling, because, without complete proof of that component, there is still a feeling that the person has broken the biggest rule of our time and society - "look good". If looking good can be so important to our society, then someone who "maybe willingly" breaks that value is seen as being in an antisocial stance. It's probably like someone who makes fun of reality TV. You can't be in direct opposition to the accepted social truths and values.

And yet the fact remains that some people have a much more visceral reaction to others who are fat than they do to others who pick their nose. Witness that the people-who-pick-their-nose convo comes around on this board with the frequency of Halley's Comet. Why do people feel this deep need to be judgmental about others who are overweight? Tobacco kills about as many people in this country as obesity, but the people who are upset about tobacco are usually upset about second-hand smoke and odor, not about what smokers are doing to their own bodies. Something else is going on here.

Originally posted by Coltrane
Now that it has become an epidemic, ALL of us are going to have to sleep in that bed that they shit in.

As I said, something else is going on here.

[spookyfish]

Originally posted by bilmore
If we were making fun of people who pick their noses on the subway, we could do it with very little guilt about "bashing". That would be an act entirely within their own choice, a repulsive habit they could avoid simply by deciding not to do it.

If we were making fun of dwarves, we would instantly be labeled cruel and horrible people, as we'd be objectifying and belittling people on the basis of something they can't change.

Fat people seem to fall somewhere in between this.

Originally posted by Coltrane
I think randomly insulting someone based on ugliness (excluding ugliness due to fat) is very cruel, b/c that is something that the person cannot change without plastic surgery.

You guys are leaving me precious little material to work with.

How am I possibly going to be able to make fun of Hank?

[Atticus Grinch]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
I think the fat-bashing is done b/c some people view it as an issue that the majority of people have control over. Mainly, you can't help it if you're ugly, but, unless you have a thyroid problem, it's probably your fault that you're fat*. I think randomly insulting someone based on ugliness (excluding ugliness due to fat) is very cruel, b/c that is something that the person cannot change without plastic surgery. Some people have claimed that they CAN'T control their eating and that, like nicotine, it's addictive. We'll, we "bashers" aren't buying that. Food didn't suddenly become addicting over the past 15 years. Moreover, before obesity was an epidemic, the obese person paid dearly for being obese through insults, physical limitations, etc. No one else was harmed. Now that it has become an epidemic, ALL of us are going to have to sleep in that bed that they shit in.

Interesting point. But people get defensive when their vices are described as causing larger social ills, and you can expect to be told to shut the fuck up unless you're spotless when it comes to self-destructive behaviors, even the ones that are totally cool on an anonymous chat board. People are shitting in my bed when they joke about excessive drinking and recreational drug use on this board as well --- their little vices "cause" crime and teen drug use to an even less attenuated extent than overeating causes a strain on the healthcare system and harm to others.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Tyrone_Slothrop
And yet the fact remains that some people have a much more visceral reaction to others who are fat than they do to others who pick their nose. Witness that the people-who-pick-their-nose convo comes around on this board with the frequency of Halley's Comet. Why do people feel this deep need to be judgmental about others who are overweight? Tobacco kills about as many people in this country as obesity, but the people who are upset about tobacco are usually upset about second-hand smoke and odor, not about what smokers are doing to their own bodies. Something else is going on here.

Well, that's what I meant by, you can't directly challenge what everyone accepts as the highest values. In our society, we rank people, first of all, by looks. Looks are everything. On top of that, (and unrelated to it), the current societal picture of beauty is "thin". So, someone who is far from that norm appears to be rejecting our highest societal value. That's felt as a rejection of the society, which makes that person either a threat, or just someone to be shunned.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Interesting point. But people get defensive when their vices are described as causing larger social ills, and you can expect to be told to shut the fuck up unless you're spotless when it comes to self-destructive behaviors, even the ones that are totally cool on an anonymous chat board. People are shitting in my bed when they joke about excessive drinking and recreational drug use on this board as well --- their little vices "cause" crime and teen drug use to an even less attenuated extent than overeating causes a strain on the healthcare system and harm to others.

Hence the reason that excessive drinking and recreational drug use are discouraged in this country by Dram Shop Acts, limitations on the sale of liquor, and outlawed recreational drugs.

The only deterrent to overreating is social. Apparently it's not very effective.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by bilmore

For the people who call it a chosen state, it's probably the most obvious and forceful sign of a weak character - especially in a society where looks and outward appearance seem to count for everything. Thus, the scorn. For people who think that weight has a strong genetic/social component, it's still troubling, because, without complete proof of that component, there is still a feeling that the person has broken the biggest rule of our time and society - "look good". If looking good can be so important to our society, then someone who "maybe willingly" breaks that value is seen as being in an antisocial stance. It's probably like someone who makes fun of reality TV. You can't be in direct opposition to the accepted social truths and values.

Ever see how animals in the wild shun unhealthy animals? People who look like hell through no fault but their own raise a primordial disdain in others. Its an instinctual thing that probably dates back to when we travelled in tribes. The guy who ate too much became a drag on the group, and his appearance was the unmistakable proof of his crime.

I personally have a very visceral distaste for people who couch their own shortcomings as diseases. Its coddling the weak and it does a terrible disservice to the legitimately diseased.

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Interesting point. But people get defensive when their vices are described as causing larger social ills, and you can expect to be told to shut the fuck up unless you're spotless when it comes to self-destructive behaviors, even the ones that are totally cool on an anonymous chat board. People are shitting in my bed when they joke about excessive drinking and recreational drug use on this board as well --- their little vices "cause" crime and teen drug use to an even less attenuated extent than overeating causes a strain on the healthcare system and harm to ot

hers.

1) what is with you and the scatological references? Gross.

2) Sunny bunny? Every time I smoke a joint or do a line of coke, whjich is hardly ever, but wahtever, a teenager in Des Moines does drugs. Whatever, Nancy.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by bilmore
On top of that, (and unrelated to it), the current societal picture of beauty is "thin".

Ultra-thin was never seen as beautiful until it became rare and difficult to achieve. Don't animals inherently seek out rare traits to promote evolution? Hank?

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by bilmore
If we were making fun of people who pick their noses on the subway, we could do it with very little guilt about "bashing". That would be an act entirely within their own choice, a repulsive habit they could avoid simply by deciding not to do it.

Fuck you. There's nothing wrong with a little house cleaning on the way home.