Meet your new thread, same as the old thread.

[Gattigap]

Marc Ambinder tells us about a new proposal Romney's announcing in Colorado today, as part of his comprehensive plan for Winning the War on Terror. Romney quote:

• I believe America must establish a Special Partnership Force, comprised or Army Special Forces personnel and Intelligence personnel. This force would work hand-in-glove with local host governments. Together, in partnership, they would seek to target and separate terrorists from the local population, and to disrupt and defeat them. They would have the authority to call in all elements of civil assistance and humanitarian aid. And, where they felt it was necessary, theycould call in delta and SEAL resources.

I'm sure there are good ideas in that plan, but I can't stop thinking about puppets and large armaments.



Gattigap

[LessinSF]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
An ex-President should generally not say our country has done something horrible to some group of people- that would be my point. ...

now you got Carter saying then he decided to fuck the Palis? ultimately what possible good comes to our country from his crap? what possible bad?

Honesty, credibility, etc. The world knows anyway, and we don't seem afraid to admit when we "punish" other countries in George's "Axis of Evil." Why should we dissemble (poorly) only when it comes to the Palis, who elected (unlike North Koreans, etc.) Hamas? Why are truthful statements "idiotic?" If a former President (wacky as he may be) can't say that the Emperor is wearing no clothes, who can or should?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
well, you and your blogs and me and Di and most everyone else has voiced subjective opinions about what our policy is/was/did. It's okay when it's you or me or less, hell, even the blogs everyone but you understands are just guys talking, but an ex-President should shut the fuck up if he can't say something neutral or positive on an issue of this import.

do you know 80% of the saudi public think Bush did 9-11? now you got Carter saying then he decided to fuck the Palis? ultimately what possible good comes to our country from his crap? what possible bad?

See Less's post: We did decide to screw the Palestinians, more or less. Reasonable people can differ about whether it was a wise policy, but thinking that the Arab world won't figure it out if our ex-Presidents stay mum doesn't make much sense.

eta: stp

[Diane_Keaton]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't think Diane cares so much about these standards of decorum. I think she objects to what Carter said for other reasons. But she can speak for herself.

I don't care about "standards of decorum" like which leader flubbed a bow/curtesy or that kind of gaffe. It's the idea that our ex President is suggesting the U.S. (in cohort with the Zionists) is out to get the Palis. One can disagree about what the U.S. does to deter terrorism (whether it be cutting off funding to terrorist organizations) and such but that's what it is -- the U.S. trying to do something about the never-ending conflict there and, now, attacks on our own soil (ostensibly) because of the Israel/Palestine conflict. If someone thinks the U.S. is fucking up this mission, I'm fine with that -- there are a billion people out there claiming the U.S. has "now radicalized Muslims" by invading Iraq. But to suggest the U.S. isn't trying to deter terrorism (by not supporting terrorist leaders/organizations voted into power) and that, instead, it is out to get Palis as some sort of revenge or otherwise...is irresponsible. He didn't say "I don't agree with the U.S. government's approach to the new leader". He claimed the U.S. joined up with Israel with the intention to just punish these people. Shocking. And dangerous.

You say you want to talk about things of more "substance" and not decorum? Well, I think Carter's words express the big (substantive) question, Ty -- how should our government approach blood that is shed (including our's) in order to get Jews out of Israel/Palestine, or in the name of Allah against the evil U.S. empire. Carter suggests we aren't trying to stop bloodshed, but simply punishing people for voting a certain way. He has also said (infamously and I'm sure you read this):

it is imperative, that the general Arab community and all significant Palestinian groups make it clear that they will end the suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism when international laws and the ultimate goals of the Roadmap for Peace are accepted by Israel.

Even Carter has admitted the poor choice of words here. There's plenty of similar "gaffes" the man has made if you want to call them that. But I think these "gaffes" reflect his instinctive views about terrorists blowing up babies to get what they want out of Israel. His tap on the hand to baby killers is "you guys need to express louder to your victims that you'll stop if they do A, B and C; only then will your baby killing be effective." It's the old "how much do we accede" to terrorists issue - who is acceding, who isn't, etc.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
Like Less, I think what Carter said wasn't a gaffe or a blunder. But I am far more interested in talking about the policy questions involved than I am in talking about whatever anti-Semitism lies in Carter's heart, let alone whether other Presidents were anti-Semitic. Which is why my response to your post about Carter was to post something from someone else referring the "punishment" of the Palestinians.

If that's the case, you are more interested than talking about it than Carter, who has refused to debate anything in his book on the merits...with about anyone. Any offer of open debate has been categorically rebuffed.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
If that's the case, you are more interested than talking about it than Carter, who has refused to debate anything in his book on the merits...with about anyone. Any offer of open debate has been categorically rebuffed.

I am more interested in talking about the policy questions involved than I am in talking about whatever lies in Carter's heart. I would find your condemnation of the man more interesting if you didn't have essentially the same reaction to every Democratic politician.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
See Less's post: We did decide to screw the Palestinians, more or less. Reasonable people can differ about whether it was a wise policy, but thinking that the Arab world won't figure it out if our ex-Presidents stay mum doesn't make much sense.

eta: stp

Any nickel or dime we give to Israel is perceived by the entire Arab world as "screwing the Palis" - if not screwing all of Islam - so I'm not really sure that this matters.

What does matter, is that Carter blatantly lies about history and continuously defends murderous rabble while simulataneously placing blame for all of the world's ills on the US and Israel.

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
I would find your condemnation of the man more interesting if you didn't have essentially the same reaction to every Democratic politician.

I like Truman.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
I don't care about "standards of decorum" like which leader flubbed a bow/curtesy or that kind of gaffe.

Yes, that's Hank's issue.

It's the idea that our ex President is suggesting the U.S. (in cohort with the Zionists) is out to get the Palis.

Come now, that's not what he said. A judge who sentences ("punishes") a defendant is not necessarily out to get the defendant.

But to suggest the U.S. isn't trying to deter terrorism (by not supporting terrorist leaders/organizations voted into power) and that, instead, it is out to get Palis as some sort of revenge or otherwise...is irresponsible.

Not "revenge or otherwise." The U.S. policy was to try to ratchet up the pain experienced by Palestinians in the hopes of undermining support for Hamas. Not revenge. It was forward-looking. I happen to think it was misguided, but that's what they were thinking.

You say you want to talk about things of more "substance" and not decorum? Well, I think Carter's words express the big (substantive) question, Ty -- how should our government approach blood that is shed (including our's) in order to get Jews out of Israel/Palestine, or in the name of Allah against the evil U.S. empire. Carter suggests we aren't trying to stop bloodshed, but simply punishing people for voting a certain way.

No, he was talking about the way in which we were trying to pursue peace in the Middle East. The question is, what can be done to undermine Hamas and support Fatah -- which I assume you would agree is better for us and Israel, on balance, which is not to say that Fatah is a bunch of angels. Whatever the preferences of most Palestinians, Fatah has been chased from Gaza.

He has also said (infamously and I'm sure you read this):

Even Carter has admitted the poor choice of words here.

It sounds to me like a poor choice of words, and I have a hard time believing that he thinks it's OK for suicide bombings to continue until then.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
I like Truman.

... every living Democratic politician.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Any nickel or dime we give to Israel is perceived by the entire Arab world as "screwing the Palis" - if not screwing all of Islam - so I'm not really sure that this matters.

If that were true, it might not matter. Alternatively, maybe some portions of the Arab world can distinguish between degrees of "screwing the Palis."

What does matter, is that Carter blatantly lies about history and continuously defends murderous rabble while simulataneously placing blame for all of the world's ills on the US and Israel.

I am against blatant lies about history and the defense of murderous rabbles, and also placing blame for all of the world's ills on the US and Israel.

While I expected someone to make the leap that Carter was blaming the US for what's just happened in Gaza, I didn't expect it to take so long.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
I like Truman.

What did he say about Mugabe?

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
... every living Democratic politician.

I like Zell Miller

[SlaveNoMore]

Tyrone Slothrop
While I expected someone to make the leap that Carter was blaming the US for what's just happened in Gaza, I didn't expect it to take so long.

Not much of leap, given his writings.

[SlaveNoMore]

Shape Shifter
What did he say about Mugabe?

"I never did give anybody hell. I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."