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Old 10-01-2004, 06:42 PM   #1051
Say_hello_for_me
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Mt. Saint Helens

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Originally posted by sgtclub
Is erupting!
Penske's herd of socks aren't in danger, are they?
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Old 10-01-2004, 06:43 PM   #1052
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TNR on Kerry

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sgtclub
Kerry is playing politics. You are just naieve. Who would you have wanted in the coalition that wasn't (and that did participate in 1991)? France and Germany? Sorry, that just wasn't happening. France had too many interests in Iraq and Schroeder need the anti war stance to get reelected.
France and Germany have already stated, on the record, that they won't help Kerry either.

Kerry looks to DeGaulle and Chamberlain as examples of how to lead. We know how that all turned out.
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Old 10-01-2004, 06:45 PM   #1053
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TNR on Kerry

Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Kerry looks to DeGaulle ... as [an] example[] of how to lead.
You are so full of shit with this. His point was that when Kennedy's Administration offered to show France intel about Cuba, de Gaulle said he didn't need to see it. It was a point about what Bush has done to our international standing, not a story about de Gaulle.
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Old 10-01-2004, 06:46 PM   #1054
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Penske sock gets FOX in hot water.

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Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
If only CBS was so quick and forthcoming in their retractions of false stories....
CBS got taken. Someone at FOX made shit up, and posted it as news. There's a difference.
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Old 10-01-2004, 06:50 PM   #1055
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TNR on Kerry

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Tyrone Slothrop
You are so full of shit with this. His point was that when Kennedy's Administration offered to show France intel about Cuba, de Gaulle said he didn't need to see it. It was a point about what Bush has done to our international standing, not a story about de Gaulle.
It was also yet another bullshit story from Kerry since DeGaulle did, in fact, study those photos in rigid detail, according to CIA reports at the time.
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Old 10-01-2004, 06:52 PM   #1056
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National Review compares Bush to (gulp) Quayle

http://www.nationalreview.com/nordli...0410010114.asp


October 01, 2004, 1:14 a.m.
Don’t Shoot the Messenger . . .
. . . ’cause this assessment’s grim.

Don't shoot the messenger.

I thought Kerry did very, very well; and I thought Bush did poorly — much worse than he is capable of doing. Listen: If I were just a normal guy — not Joe Political Junkie — I would vote for Kerry. On the basis of that debate, I would. If I were just a normal, fairly conservative, war-supporting guy: I would vote for Kerry. On the basis of that debate.

And I promise you that no one wants this president reelected more than I. I think that he may want it less.

Let me phrase one more time what I wish to say: If I didn't know anything — were a political naïf, being introduced to the two candidates for the first time — I would vote for Kerry. Based on that infernal debate.

As I write this column, I have not talked with anyone about the debate, and I have listened to no commentary. I am writing without influence (which is how I try to do my other criticism, by the way). What I say may be absurd in light of the general reaction — but so be it.

I'd like to share with you some notes I made during the debate. You may recall that I offered similar scribbles from the two conventions.

Bush "won the stride." By that I mean that he crossed the center of the stage first, to shake his opponent's hand. In 1980, Reagan strode over to shake Carter's hand — and utterly surprised him. Carter was sunk almost from that moment.

Kerry must be darned tall — he made Bush look pretty short. Same as the Bush 41-Dukakis gap? Not sure.

As he began, Kerry spoke clearly, and at a nice pace. He was disciplined about the clock. I wasn't nuts about those double fists he made — but he relaxed them as the evening wore on.

Kerry went right to the alliances. He emphasized the importance of such relationships. At least you can't accuse him of succumbing to Republican mockery on the subject, of shucking this core conviction of his.

Bush, throughout the evening, as Kerry spoke, had that pursed and annoyed look. I think it must have driven many people crazy. (I happen to love his whole battery of looks — but I'm weird.) Also, the president did his eye-closing thing, just a little. Could have been worse.

Furthermore, Bush sounded very Texan — I mean, extremely. More Texan, more drawly, more twangy than usual. I think the more tired he is — and, as a rule, the later in the day it is — the more Texan he sounds.

He was right to say that the enemy understands what is at stake in Iraq — bingo. In fact, Bush was never stronger than in the opening rounds of the debate.

Kerry was smart to mention all those military bigwigs who support him. We conservatives roll our eyes when we hear this; sure, Kerry can roll out about ten; we can roll out about ten thousand. But this support for Kerry will be news to many Americans.

The senator seemed to rattle the president, about 15 minutes in — and he stayed rattled. Also, the president was on the defensive almost all the time. Rarely did he put Kerry on the defensive. Kerry could relax, and press.

I was hoping that Bush would put Kerry on trial — make him the issue. Sure, Bush is the incumbent. But it can be done.

Kerry was effective in talking about parents who have lost sons or daughters in the war. Bush was fairly good, later, too — but not quite as good, I thought. (These are all "I thoughts.")

Although the two candidates had the same amount of time, Kerry got many, many more words in. And they weren't rushed words. Kerry spoke at a good, measured pace all through.

Bush said, "We're makin' progress" a hundred times — that seemed a little desperate. He also said "mixed messages" a hundred times — I was wishing that he would mix his message. He said, "It's hard work," or, "It's tough," a hundred times. In fact, Bush reminded me of Dan Quayle in the 1988 debate, when the Hoosier repeated a couple of talking points over and over, to some chuckles from the audience (if I recall correctly).

Staying on message is one thing; robotic repetition — when there are oceans of material available — is another.

When Kerry said that our people in the military didn't have enough equipment, Bush was pretty much blasé. He showed no indignation. He might have said, "How dare you? How dare you contend that I am leaving our fighting men and women defenseless!"

I hate to say it, but often Bush gave the appearance of being what his critics charge he is: callow, jejune, unserious. And remember — talk about repetition! — I concede this as someone who loves the man.

When he talked about Iraq, he ran the risk of sounding Pollyanna-ish — a little head-in-the-sand-ish. Bush is not. But he might have left that impression.

And why didn't he do more to tie the Iraq war to 9/11? To the general War on Terror? Why didn't he remind people that this is a war of self-defense — that, after 9/11, we couldn't go back to the days of episodic strikes, and law enforcement, and intelligence gathering?

And why didn't he shove Kofi Annan down Kerry's throat? "My allegiance is not to Mr. Annan; my allegiance is to the American people. The secretary-general has called our war illegal. Nuts to him."

Kerry kept mentioning Bush's father — how good he was, as compared with 43. Why didn't Bush let loose the significant fact that Kerry voted against the 1991 Gulf War?

When it came time to mention our allies in the Iraq campaign, Bush mentioned only Blair and the Polish premier. That made it seem like a pathetically short list — no Italy, no Spain, no Australia.

In fact, it was Kerry who had to bring up Australia!

When Moderator Lehrer and Kerry were talking about American casualties, Bush might have brought up the 9/11 casualties — and the casualties we might have incurred had we not acted against Saddam Hussein. "We ran the risk of suffering a lot more deaths if we had let Saddam remain in power."

Look, I'm not Monday-morning quarterbacking here. This is not simple esprit d'escalier. This is all basic.

Bush could have mentioned that Saddam was a great harborer and funder of terrorists. He let Kerry get away with saying that Iraq and terror had nothing to do with each other.

Why did Bush keep requesting a special 30 seconds to say the same thing over and over?

Kerry used Secretary Powell against Bush repeatedly, and effectively — same as he used 41 against him. Bush never parried.

I'm thinking that Bush didn't respect Kerry enough. That he didn't prepare enough. That he had kind of a disdain for the assignment — "For gooness' sake, the American people are with me. They know I'm doin' the necessary. They're not going to dump me for this phony-baloney."

Well, they may opt for the phony-baloney.

I had a feeling that, as the debate progressed, Kerry felt very lucky to be hit with so little. To be relatively untouched.

On other occasions, Bush has been extremely persuasive in talking about the "risks of action" versus the "risks of inaction." Could have used that — to remind people of the choices he faced.

I have a feeling that Bush could have done just the same — exactly the same, no better, no worse — with zero preparation. With no practice at all. Just wingin' it.

Kerry said, "I've never wavered in my life." That's ridiculous. Who doesn't waver in his life?

Strangely enough, it was Bush who got bogged down in detail — trying to remember detail — not Kerry, who was good on generalities (as well as details).

So when Bush talks about Iran and North Korea, he gets all ally-loving and anti-unilateralist? He gets all, "Be my guest, Jacques and Gerhard"? Bush may be right; and he may have been trying to show his flexibility; but I think this can confuse the average voter.

And his answer on North Korea is to tout Jiang Zemin, that beast? (At least Scowcroft and Eagleburger should be proud.)

From this debate, you would never know that Kerry is one of the most famous, or infamous, doves and lefties in American politics — lefter than Ted Kennedy, lefter than Hillary. He seemed positively Pattonesque, at times. So now he praises Ronald Reagan! A fabulously disingenuous performance.

Toward the end, Bush mentioned SDI (though weakly). Hurrah.

His pronunciation of "Vladimir" was priceless.

His pronunciation of "mullahs" as "moolahs" was a little less fun — more silly.

Ah, so it's Kerry who mentions George Will! And favorably!

Oh, Bush could have killed Kerry on the Patriot Act. Just killed him. Didn't happen.

Kerry's closing statement was superb — couldn't have made better use of his time. You almost didn't recognize the Massachusetts liberal we have known for 30 years.

Bush was weary — harmfully weary, I think. He let a million opportunities go by. You can't exploit them all, no. We all kick ourselves, after some public performance. But Kerry, it seemed to me, let not one opportunity go by. And he perceived some that I hadn't caught.

Yeah, he screwed up a couple of times: got the "break it, buy it" line wrong; said "Treblinka" instead of "Lubyanka." But that was small beer.

And you know what? The worst thing about Kerry is not that he is inconsistent; not that he is a flip-flopper. The worst thing about him is that he is a reflexive leftist, who has been wrong about nearly everything important his entire career. Nuclear freeze, anybody? Solidarity with the Sandinistas?

This is a man who called the Grenada invasion — carried out by his now-hero Reagan — "a bully's show of force against a weak Third World nation." His view of Grenada was no different from Ron Dellums's.

Friends, I have no doubt that this little reaction column of mine will disappoint many of you. I'm sorry. I have called George W. Bush a Rushmore-level president. I believe history will bear that out; and if it doesn't, history will be wrong. I think that Bush's reelection is crucial not only to this country but to the world at large. I not only think that Bush is the right man for the job; I have a deep fondness — love, really — for the man, though I don't know him.

But tonight (I am writing immediately post-debate) did not show him at his best. Not at all. He will do better — I feel certain — in subsequent debates. I also worry that they count less.
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Old 10-01-2004, 06:52 PM   #1057
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Penske sock gets FOX in hot water.

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Tyrone Slothrop
CBS got taken. Someone at FOX made shit up, and posted it as news. There's a difference.
To a litigator like you, maybe. This transactional guy claims "event of default" on both.
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Old 10-01-2004, 07:00 PM   #1058
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Biased Questions?

Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
How about a book that Kennedy actually wrote ?
I'm a huge fan of Cecil Adams. He startd out here in Chicago, writing for the Chicago Reader. I had all of his books at one point, but have lost them in moves over the years.

I had never heard that there was any doubt Kennedy wrote Profiles in Courage, but I'm not shocked to hear that Ted Sorenson was the main scribe.
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Old 10-01-2004, 07:03 PM   #1059
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TNR on Kerry

Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
It was also yet another bullshit story from Kerry since DeGaulle did, in fact, study those photos in rigid detail, according to CIA reports at the time.
Well, don't forget, this was about the time that Kennedy was twisting DeGaulle's nuts in a knot over Algeria.

At the same time, Kennedy had enough gravitas to have earned the little show from DeGaulle. As Business Week and the National Review are making clear for those who don't want to listen, the guy who had gravitas, the guy who looked "Presidential", on that stage was Kerry.

But, screw foreign policy. Screw that mumbo jumbo stuff about thinking about what we're doing - Half a League, Half a League, Half a League Onward! REMEMBER DEERFIELD!
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Old 10-01-2004, 07:03 PM   #1060
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Biased Questions?

Quote:
Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Can I just say, except for the snotty and repetitive attack in the last line of your first paragraph, 2.

I am all in favor of raising the the gas tax and implementing a national "vehicle-weight miles-travelled" tax. And I think the idea of paying as you go is at the core of what is Right.

Which is to say, even if you are not me, you can still be partly Right.
What exactly is Right about the government interfering with the oil industry, imposing additional taxes, or infringing on my right of travel?

Just curious.
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Old 10-01-2004, 07:05 PM   #1061
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Penske sock gets FOX in hot water.

Quote:
Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
To a litigator like you, maybe. This transactional guy claims "event of default" on both.
There's a distinction between harboring a Jeff Fastow/Richard Schrushy and not reviewing things you get from outside quite closely enough.
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Old 10-01-2004, 07:09 PM   #1062
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Hey, Wonk.

Quote:
Originally posted by bilmore
You complain that I don't treat you "individually". That I treat all libs here as fungible. That I don't take your viewpoint seriously.

Maybe it's because you all use old, slanted info to make your partisan points. Maybe it's because you all (you, too) rip what's happening in Iraq, based on ignorance. Yes, effin' IGNORANCE.

Got any really close rels in Iraq?

How's this?

-------------

The US media is abuzz today with the news of an intelligence report that is very negative about the prospects for Iraq’s future. CNN’s website says, “[The] National Intelligence Estimate was sent to the White House in July with a classified warning predicting the best case for Iraq was ‘tenuous stability’ and the worst case was civil war.” That report, along with the car bombings and kidnappings in Baghdad in the past couple days are being portrayed in the media as more proof of absolute chaos and the intransigence of the insurgency.

From where I sit, at the Operational Headquarters in Baghdad, that just isn’t the case. Let’s lay out some background, first about the “National Intelligence Estimate.” The most glaring issue with its relevance is the fact that it was delivered to the White House in July. That means that the information that was used to derive the intelligence was gathered in the Spring – in the immediate aftermath of the April battle for Fallujah, and other events. The report doesn’t cover what has happened in July or August, let alone September.

The naysayers will point to the recent battles in Najaf and draw parallels between that and what happened in Fallujah in April. They aren’t even close. The bad guys did us a HUGE favor by gathering together in one place and trying to make a stand. It allowed us to focus on them and defeat them. Make no mistake, Al Sadr’s troops were thoroughly smashed. The estimated enemy killed in action is huge. Before the battles, the residents of the city were afraid to walk the streets. Al Sadr’s enforcers would seize people and bring them to his Islamic court where sentence was passed for religious or other violations. Long before the battles people were looking for their lost loved ones who had been taken to “court” and never seen again. Now Najafians can and do walk their streets in safety. Commerce has returned and the city is being rebuilt. Iraqi security forces and US troops are welcomed and smiled upon. That city was liberated again. It was not like Fallujah – the bad guys lost and are in hiding or dead.
Quote:

You may not have even heard about the city of Samarra. Two weeks ago, that Sunni Triangle city was a “No-go” area for US troops. But guess what? The locals got sick of living in fear from the insurgents and foreign fighters that were there and let them know they weren’t welcome. They stopped hosting them in their houses and the mayor of the town brokered a deal with the US commander to return Iraqi government sovereignty to the city without a fight. The people saw what was on the horizon and decided they didn’t want their city looking like Fallujah in April or Najaf in August.

Boom, boom, just like that two major “hot spots” cool down in rapid succession. Does that mean that those towns are completely pacified? No. What it does mean is that we are learning how to do this the right way. The US commander in Samarra saw an opportunity and took it – probably the biggest victory of his military career and nary a shot was fired in anger. Things will still happen in those cities, and you can be sure that the bad guys really want to take them back. Those achievements, more than anything else in my opinion, account for the surge in violence in recent days – especially the violence directed at Iraqis by the insurgents. Both in Najaf and Samarra ordinary people stepped out and took sides with the Iraqi government against the insurgents, and the bad guys are hopping mad. They are trying to instill fear once again. The worst thing we could do now is pull back and let that scum back into people’s homes and lives.

So, you may hear analysts and prognosticators on CNN, ABC and the like in the next few days talking about how bleak the situation is here in Iraq, but from where I sit, it’s looking significantly better now than when I got here. The momentum is moving in our favor, and all Americans need to know that, so please, please, pass this on to those who care and will pass it on to others. It is very demoralizing for us here in uniform to read & hear such negativity in our press. It is fodder for our enemies to use against us and against the vast majority of Iraqis who want their new government to succeed. It causes the American public to start thinking about the acceptability of “cutting our losses” and pulling out, which would be devastating for Iraq for generations to come, and Muslim militants would claim a huge victory, causing us to have to continue to fight them elsewhere (remember, in war “Away” games are always preferable to “Home” games). Reports like that also cause Iraqis begin to fear that we will pull out before we finish the job, and thus less willing to openly support their interim government and US/Coalition activities. We are realizing significant progress here – not propaganda progress, but real strides are being made. It’s terrible to see our national morale, and support for what we’re doing here, jeopardized by sensationalized stories hyped by media giants whose #1 priority is advertising income followed closely by their political agenda; getting the story straight falls much further down on their priority scale, as Dan Rather and CBS News have so aptly demonstrated in the last week.

Posted by Captain Ed at September 17, 2004 01:36 PM

-----

But I bet a dollar you don't even make it this far. Read what someone on the ground has to say that knocks down your view? Heavens, no. But, slander the effort for the sake of a doomsdayer? Sure. He's in your party.

I never thought I'd say this, but it IS correct to attack the patriotism of the Dems. You'd rather we lost, just so your party wins. My god, how you guys must hate Bush. I can't imagine hating that much.
A few days ago, bilmore passed along this e-mail about how wonderful things have been in Samarra lately. Imagine my surprise, then, when I heard on the radio this morning that U.S. and Iraqi forces were launching a "major offensive" into Samarra. "That can't be!", I thought. "Bilmore's anonymous but clearly better-informed-than-the-liberal-media e-mail correspondent told us all not too long that we'd won this big victory in Samarra. Surely with bilmore's dedication to keeping us all informed, he'd have informed us of unfortunate developments in Samarra!" Cognitive dissonance, I tell you. And then I recalled that just a week ago, Iraqi Prime Minister Allawi told Congress, "In Samarra, the Iraqi government has tackled the insurgents who once controlled the city." Surely Allawi had no reason to misrepresent the situation on the ground in Samarra. And if he'd been inclined to bend the truth, I'm sure the man from the Bush campaign who helped him would have set him straight.
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Old 10-01-2004, 07:13 PM   #1063
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TNR on Kerry

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Greedy,Greedy,Greedy
As Business Week and the National Review are making clear for those who don't want to listen, the guy who had gravitas, the guy who looked "Presidential", on that stage was Kerry.
That was Nordlinger on NRO. If you read the rest of the writers, they disagree emphatically (most called it a draw). See Gereghty, for instance.

This is somewhat akin to reading a Safire article and saying :Well, the NYT thinks...."
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Old 10-01-2004, 07:13 PM   #1064
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Quote:
Originally posted by soup sandwich
Regarding Bush, he told me the following:

He knows (fill name of world leader).
His job is hard.
The war on terror is hard.
Once he makes a decision, he sticks with it. Furthermore, once a President makes a decision, he must never ever change his mind or else it will confuse everyone else. Refusing to ever change your mind=leadership.
You left out that the head of the FBI has been his office!
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Old 10-01-2004, 07:15 PM   #1065
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Biased Questions?

Quote:
Originally posted by taxwonk
What exactly is Right about the government interfering with the oil industry, imposing additional taxes, or infringing on my right of travel?

Just curious.
This one is too easy:

It is Right not to externalize costs.
This isn't interfering with the oil industry, this is interfering with externalizers.

I can't help it if a bunch of Maine liberals hijacked Texas' oil and y'all started thinking they were the Right.
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