Nutjobs Ranting About Politics. - Page 8

SlaveNoMore · 07-20-2004, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Tyrone Slothrop
Sorry, one more:

Though the authors of the Senate report chose not to include this point, Plame's bosses at the CIA have always said they came up with the idea to send him, not her. Indeed, only yesterday a senior intelligence official confirmed to me that, according to her bosses, Plame "did not initiate" the idea of sending Wilson on the Niger mission. Her bosses came up with the idea, the official explained, and then she agreed to ask him if he'd be willing to undertake it.

1) This is contradicted by the wording of Plame's own memo in the file, and

2) Even if Marshall's assertions here are true - and this is not established - this still runs to counter to all of Wilson's bleating that she had "absolutely nothing" to do with his trip.

Shape Shifter · 07-20-2004, 04:04 PM

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...bumper_sticker

(GOP bumper sticker: "Kerry is bin Laden's Man. Bush is Mine.")

eta: this appears to be a popular them among the GOP. http://www.authenticgop.com/

SlaveNoMore · 07-20-2004, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Shape Shifter
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...bumper_sticker

(GOP bumper sticker: "Kerry is bin Laden's Man. Bush is Mine.")

eta: this appears to be a popular them among the GOP. http://www.authenticgop.com/

Do we really want to delve into the stupidity of bumper stickers? In the last week, I've seen the following:

Bush Lied
Fuck Bush
Fuck Cheney
Read my Pussy Lips, No More Bush
Nuke the GOP
I'm with Stupid -> [Bush photo]

Tyrone Slothrop · 07-20-2004, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
1) This is contradicted by the wording of Plame's own memo in the file, and

2) Even if Marshall's assertions here are true - and this is not established - this still runs to counter to all of Wilson's bleating that she had "absolutely nothing" to do with his trip.

Assuming that you are talking about the quotation from Plame's memo (underlined below) on page 39 of the report, not so:

Some CPD officials could not recall how the office decided to contact the former ambassador, however, interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife, a CPD employee, suggested his name for the trip. The CPD reports officer told Committee staff that the former ambassador's wife "offered up his name" and a memorandum to the Deputy Chief of the CPD on February 12, 2002, from the former ambassador's wife says, "my husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." This was just one day before CPD sent a cable [REDACTED] requesting concurrence with CPD's idea to send the former ambassador to Niger and requesting any additional information from the foreign government service on their uranium reports. The former ambassador's wife told Committee staff that when CPD decided it would like to send the former ambassador to Niger, she approached her husband on behalf of the CIA and told him "there's this crazy report" on a purported deal for Niger to sell uranium to Iraq.

2) True. I don't remember said bleating, but I take your word for it.

Shape Shifter · 07-20-2004, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Do we really want to delve into the stupidity of bumper stickers? In the last week, I've seen the following:

Bush Lied
Fuck Bush
Fuck Cheney
Read my Pussy Lips, No More Bush
Nuke the GOP
I'm with Stupid -> [Bush photo]

Displayed at party headquarters? So soon after the shameful Cleland episode? Ah, fuck it. It's politics. Whatever works, right?

SlaveNoMore · 07-20-2004, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Shape Shifter
Displayed at party headquarters? So soon after the shameful Cleland episode? Ah, fuck it. It's politics. Whatever works, right?

Party headquarters... in Louisville KY.

Since I've never actually stepped inside of a small-city Democratic party headquarters, I'll just have to take your word that I won't find any silly Bush-bashing bumper stickers therein.

Sidd Finch · 07-20-2004, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
as to para. 1
Yes. different evaluation of what it meant, but that's not a lie.
as to para. 2
So when you say "Bush lied" you mean to limit to those specific statements, with the general "he has WMD" not being included?

When I say "Bush lied," I mean that Bush presented to the American people a strong case for going to war, on the basis that Iraq posed an imminent threat, had active WMD programs and stockpiles of WMD, and was linked to al Qaeda and 9/11 (e.g., the comment that when you talk about terrorism, there is no difference between Iraq and al Qaeda), and that the evidence of this was conclusive so that no reasonable person could doubt it, and that there was no material contradictory evidence.

Do I know whether Bush had information in his head that showed the specific statements I've identified to be false? No. But one after another, the statements have proven to be untrue. No stockpiles. No 45 minute (or 45 day) availability. No Trailers of Mass Destruction. Even the half-dozen discarded shells prove not to have contained chemicals. Does this not give you the impression that Bush decided on the war and sought to build his case for it, rather than that he looked at war only as a last resort and only if there was consistent and reliable information to demonstrate that it was necessary?

Bush built his case for war like a marginally ethical trial lawyer building his case to a jury -- lots of hyperbole, lots of ellipsis, lots of altering statements to make them literally true while knowing that their implication was suspect (e.g., changing "Iraq sought uranium from Niger" to "the Brits believe that Iraq sought uranium from Niger" and leaving out the part about how we had plenty of reason to believe that wasn't true). That's not the level of honesty and disclosure that should be expected of a leader taking his country to war.

Sidd Finch · 07-20-2004, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
1) This is contradicted by the wording of Plame's own memo in the file, and

2) Even if Marshall's assertions here are true - and this is not established - this still runs to counter to all of Wilson's bleating that she had "absolutely nothing" to do with his trip.

I've lost the point on this one. Did Plame suggest that her husband might be qualified for the trip, or was Plame the person, or one of the people, actually responsible for selecting him?

Tyrone Slothrop · 07-20-2004, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
But one after another, the statements have proven to be untrue. No stockpiles. No 45 minute (or 45 day) availability. No Trailers of Mass Destruction. Even the half-dozen discarded shells prove not to have contained chemicals.

Don't forget that we're down from 400,000 mass graves to 5,000.

Tyrone Slothrop · 07-20-2004, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I've lost the point on this one. Did Plame suggest that her husband might be qualified for the trip, or was Plame the person, or one of the people, actually responsible for selecting him?

Slave and some conservatives say the former. The CIA, per Marshall, says Plame was involved after the CIA had the idea. Per Slave, Wilson says she wasn't involved at all, which would certainly appear to be false.

Not Me · 07-20-2004, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Do we really want to delve into the stupidity of bumper stickers? In the last week, I've seen the following:

Bush Lied
Fuck Bush
Fuck Cheney
Read my Pussy Lips, No More Bush
Nuke the GOP
I'm with Stupid -> [Bush photo]

My personal fav is the "Kuck Ferry" bumper sticker.

Atticus Grinch · 07-20-2004, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Don't forget that we're down from 400,000 mass graves to 5,000.

Remember when Bilmore and Mystery Guest were breathlessly repeating the GOP talking points that Saddam was worse than Hitler?

I wonder if the people who liberated Germany took 16 months to find Auschwitz.

Atticus Grinch · 07-20-2004, 06:25 PM

Did we ever get an answer to the question of whether we're building permanent military bases (like Dhahran, Jeddah, and Riyadh in S.A.) in Iraq?

SlaveNoMore · 07-20-2004, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Tyrone Slothrop
Don't forget that we're down from 400,000 mass graves to 5,000.

We can all hope, then, that the numbers are overestimated and less people were butchered by this regime*

However, what should still be of the utmost concern to everyone is that Human Rights Watch - hardly a friend of this Administation - stands by its estimates that as many as 290,000 Iraqis have been 'disappeared' by the Iraqi government over the past two decades.

* Or as BigFatMike liked to call it, the "Sovereign Nation of Iraq" [prompt kite photo]

ltl/fb · 07-20-2004, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
We can all hope, then, that the numbers are overestimated and less people were butchered by this regime

Do you mean fewer, or that Less was butchered?