The New And Improved Fashion Board

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by patentparanyc
You are born into it. obviously, you are coming from the "upper class WASP" standpoint. The Guido mentality is a working class thing. See in re:

http://www.njguido.com

It is a way for working class guys to feel good about themselves and define themselves in a way they feel is distinctive...although it is a pack mentality.

I'm from Boston, and Revere Beach is all about the Guido.

Shirley U. Jest,

My grandparents were immigrants. You mistake my amateur anthropological interests and sarcasm for snobbery. I grew up around loads of Guidos. That's what makes them interesting to me.

Regards,
Mick

[patentparanyc]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Shirley U. Jest,

My grandparents were immigrants. You mistake my amateur anthropological interests and sarcasm for snobbery. I grew up around loads of Guidos. That's what makes them interesting to me.

Regards,
Mick

O Irish boy, I grew up with all Italians and Irish. A ton of guidos, of which I never quite fit in with, was more nerdy and awkward....very blue collar, very working class. That is why this whole upper middle class "passing" thing for me is so fascinating.....it pleases me on some level.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Spanky
Racism and prejudice is a fact of life in every human community in the world. People use ethnic, racial and religious differences to create subclasses in every country of the world. When I lived in Japan, when you tried to rent a house they would list which races were allowed to rent a certain place in the newspaper. At certain night clubs they would have a sign on the wall which listed which nationalities they would let in. Unlike most countries of the world, in the US we try and do something about these problems.

A black person in the United States has much less racial barriers to deal with than a Masai tribesman almost anywhere in southern or eastern Africa.

You are an idiot. None of this shit has anything to do with what is going on in this country. Saying that racism exists in Japan doesn't mean a thing when we're talking about racism in the United States. Poverty is a world wide phenomenon as well. That doesn't mean we throw our hands up here and accept it. We look at the reasons behind it -- the historical reasons, in an effort to try to fix it.

Originally posted by Spanky
In the African American community in the United States, lite skinned African American denigrate and hamper the progess of the dark skinned African Americans.

And dark skinned blacks do the same to light-skinned. So fucking what? Does it amount to institutional racism? Has it been sanctioned by every single institution in this country? Did we need to institute remedial measures to try and fix the harm that that's caused? Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Spanky
What that Kramer idiot did should ruin his career. What he did should not be tolerated from a person of any ethnic persuasion to any other person of any ethnic persuasion. When you give a certain ethnic group a pass, you are really telling the whole community that you are not serious about trying to deal with the problem.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever fucking heard. You're telling me that because black people can make fun of white people because white people hold all the power and wealth in this country and because black people pose no real threat to white people (aside from the historical sexual stereotypes), you're going to argue that that's why we, as a society, aren't serious about dealing with the problem of racism? That is monumentally stupid.

Originally posted by Spanky
The problem is not four hundred years of racial prejudice towards African Americans, the problem is the inclination of humans towards tribalism.

Bullshit. The exact problem in this country is the 400 years of racial prejudice and the hole that has put black people in. You can be as tribal as you like.* You don't need to enslave a group of people based on the color of their skin and then relegate them to second-class citizenship thereafter.

Originally posted by Spanky
The goal is to make this country a pure meritocracy (obviously unachievable but it is the pursuit of that goal that counts). No deviations from that goal should be tolerated because of some group's past victim status.

Fuck off. I always hear this bullshit from the people who make up the class that holds all the power. There are deviations from this unreachable goal you speak of that actual mean something. People like you never post about those things -- about who politicians pander to, about racist job hiring and lending practices, about selective police brutality. There are a million issues you could discuss. But you know what? You only fucking post when it's some shit you think is unfair against you. "Don't make fun of me! You're deviating from our collective goal! It's not fair that you can make jokes about the current power structure and the people holding that power because I sure do want you to have the same exact shot at everything that's important as I have!" Right. What a fucking joke.

TM

*And for the record, they call slavery in America "The Peculiar Institution" because it was the first time slaves were made slaves for generations simply because of the color of their skin.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by LessinSF
In the crassest sense, to preserve his career, he should have siad something like this:

I'm a racist. I was raised being taught racist beliefs, and I grew to intellectually reject those ideas, but they still linger in my subconcious. The beliefs I was taught by my parents and community influenced me, and I intellectually reject them, but, sometimes when I am under stress, they come out. I am ashamed, un-proud, embarassed, etc. about my reaction and statements, but I do not blame my parents, community, church, or whatever created this ugly bias in me, but recognize that it is there in me, and I am doing my best to overcome my prejudices, yada, yada, yada.

He could have survived that. Oprah would have had him on. The "I am not a racist" defense fails on its face. You are. The so-called proof here is in the video.

Agreed. What bothers me the most are all those people who say shit like, "I disagree with what he said and he's stupid, but I don't think he's a racist." What the fuck do people think racists do? What makes up racism or makes a person a racist? What action amounts to racism in people's minds, exactly?

TM

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
You are an idiot. None of this shit has anything to do with what is going on in this country. Saying that racism exists in Japan doesn't mean a thing when we're talking about racism in the United States. Poverty is a world wide phenomenon as well. That doesn't mean we throw our hands up here and accept it. We look at the reasons behind it -- the historical reasons, in an effort to try to fix it.

And dark skinned blacks do the same to light-skinned. So fucking what? Does it amount to institutional racism? Has it been sanctioned by every single institution in this country? Did we need to institute remedial measures to try and fix the harm that that's caused? Jesus Christ.

This is the dumbest thing I've ever fucking heard. You're telling me that because black people can make fun of white people because white people hold all the power and wealth in this country and because black people pose no real threat to white people (aside from the historical sexual stereotypes), you're going to argue that that's why we, as a society, aren't serious about dealing with the problem of racism? That is monumentally stupid.

Bullshit. The exact problem in this country is the 400 years of racial prejudice and the hole that has put black people in. You can be as tribal as you like.* You don't need to enslave a group of people based on the color of their skin and then relegate them to second-class citizenship thereafter.

Fuck off. I always hear this bullshit from the people who make up the class that holds all the power. There are deviations from this unreachable goal you speak of that actual mean something. People like you never post about those things -- about who politicians pander to, about racist job hiring and lending practices, about selective police brutality. There are a million issues you could discuss. But you know what? You only fucking post when it's some shit you think is unfair against you. "Don't make fun of me! You're deviating from our collective goal! It's not fair that you can make jokes about the current power structure and the people holding that power because I sure do want you to have the same exact shot at everything that's important as I have!" Right. What a fucking joke.

TM

*And for the record, they call slavery in America "The Peculiar Institution" because it was the first time slaves were made slaves for generations simply because of the color of their skin.

Are you saying that things wouldn't work out between you and Spanky? I thought you two would have made a cute couple.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Are you saying that things wouldn't work out between you and Spanky? I thought you two would have made a cute couple.

Why does Thurgreed keep stalking spanky? It's kinda creepy.

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Why does Thurgreed keep stalking spanky? It's kinda creepy.

I think it's sweet. We're seeing the softer side of TM. sts.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Are you saying that things wouldn't work out between you and Spanky? I thought you two would have made a cute couple.

Interesting response. I wonder what it would have been if we were talking about the historical impact of homophobia in this country.

(I get the joke you're making about my disagreement with Spanky and how that should mean to him that I am as bitter as you. I just wonder why this can be overlooked with a quick punchline without a substantive response, while if we were arguing about homophobia, it wouldn't.)

TM

[pony_trekker]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
His career was deader than Katherine Hepburn. A shrewd agent would have had him run with this. He could have moved to Idaho and done the Aryan Biker Bar Circuit. It ain't Burbank, but it's a living.

Maybe he can replace Daniel Carver as center square in Howard Stern's "Homeless Jeopardy."

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Interesting response. I wonder what it would have been if we were talking about the historical impact of homophobia in this country.

TM

What do Racists eat?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Agreed. What bothers me the most are all those people who say shit like, "I disagree with what he said and he's stupid, but I don't think he's a racist." What the fuck do people think racists do? What makes up racism or makes a person a racist? What action amounts to racism in people's minds, exactly?

TM

I don't think it applies to Richards, who clearly, based on his statements, holds quite seriously the views he aired, but there is a very thin distinction to be made between "hardcore" racists and people who say things they don't really mean in a moment of incredibly bad judgment.

I"ve called a woman on the other side of a case a "typical shrill cunt," but that doesn't mean I have a bias against women who are hardasses in court. It means she frustrated me and I lashed out. For some folks, I really believe that type of reflexive lashing out could include racial or ethnic slurs. Slurs are a cheap, lazy way of venting against somebody. Usually, their sharpness tracks the extent to which the subject of the slur has bested the speaker at some deal, case, sale, etc... People who flip out and use a slur under those circumstances do have some racist detritus rolling around in their heads, but they're not true "racists."

As I said, I do not believe Richards is one of those people. His "racist moment" was far too volcanic to have been a temporary lapse.

I guess what's a true racist depends a lot on whether you believe racism is like pregnancy, and whether you believe a person's fleeting belief in an ideology for any period, or at any moment, renders them forever adherent to that manner of thinking.

Growing up white necessarily involves consideration and rejection of racism. The ideology's a lot more fluid in culture than anyone wants to believe. For a rational/logical person, its simple to reject. But how many entirely rational/logical people do you know? I'd say there's a huge chunk of our culture who, depending on what year it is, what book they read, or what TV News they're watching, can shift from racist to non-racist, and the reverse, several times over their lives.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by pony_trekker
Maybe he can replace Daniel Carver as center square in Howard Stern's "Homeless Jeopardy."

Sirius... My Xmas present. It's been too long.

He'll put a pistol to his head before he'll do self-parody. I recall reading IRL, he had a huge fucking ego.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

It's been a while, and I need a new pair of glasses. I found a pair of frames I like, but they cost a little upwards of $400, which seems a little steep to me. True? Where is this on the spectrum? Honda Accord? Audi A4 wagon? BMW 5-series?

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
It's been a while, and I need a new pair of glasses. I found a pair of frames I like, but they cost a little upwards of $400, which seems a little steep to me. True? Where is this on the spectrum? Honda Accord? Audi A4 wagon? BMW 5-series?

Nerd.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
I don't think it applies to Richards, who clearly, based on his statements, holds quite seriously the views he aired, but there is a very thin distinction to be made between "hardcore" racists and people who say things they don't really mean in a moment of incredibly bad judgment.

I"ve called a woman on the other side of a case a "typical shrill cunt," but that doesn't mean I have a bias against women who are hardasses in court. It means she frustrated me and I lashed out. For some folks, I really believe that type of reflexive lashing out could include racial or ethnic slurs. Slurs are a cheap, lazy way of venting against somebody. Usually, their sharpness tracks the extent to which the subject of the slur has bested the speaker at some deal, case, sale, etc... People who flip out and use a slur under those circumstances do have some racist detritus rolling around in their heads, but they're not true "racists."

As I said, I do not believe Richards is one of those people. His "racist moment" was far too volcanic to have been a temporary lapse.

I guess what's a true racist depends a lot on whether you believe racism is like pregnancy, and whether you believe a person's fleeting belief in an ideology for any period, or at any moment, renders them forever adherent to that manner of thinking.

Growing up white necessarily involves consideration and rejection of racism. The ideology's a lot more fluid in culture than anyone wants to believe. For a rational/logical person, its simple to reject. But how many entirely rational/logical people do you know? I'd say there's a huge chunk of our culture who, depending on what year it is, what book they read, or what TV News they're watching, can shift from racist to non-racist, and the reverse, several times over their lives.

I agree with a lot of this. I think people who are hurt tend to lash out at other people and instinctively, depending on how hurt they are or how vindictive they are (or both), latch on to something they know (i) gives them power over their target* and (ii) is as hurtful as possible. I also agree that Richards' outburst came from somewhere deep inside.

However, I still think it's a good question. Can you have racist actions performed by someone who isn't racist? What is the magic line that makes someone racist? Is it that they actually believe the racial slurs they're using? Or is it the fact that they're willing to use them knowing their impact?

I'm quite sure my line is different than yours, as I don't see how one can float in and out of racism based on whatever it is that is currently influencing them. That removes any sense of personal responsibility from the equation.

It's like the old argument, "He's from a different era. He's never going to change. That's the way things were back then." Right. Because people back then didn't look at racism and see something inherently wrong with it and people back then, white and black, didn't work on effecting change. And even though it is no longer "back then," he can't be expected to enlighten or educate himself because he's old or set in his ways or whatever. In fact, as most other people have changed the way they think about things, he has purposely resisted and held on to his "outdated" belief system.

I've always thought this was a bullshit cop-out and it shits all over the people who took it upon themselves to actively change their ways of thinking to more enlightened ones.

TM

*And you may want to question if people want to gain any kind of power over the target of a racial slur or a specific kind of power since, in the immediate case, the word "nigger" is powerful because of all of the historical baggage it has.