The New And Improved Fashion Board

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by patentparanyc
Once in a religion class I was told to STFU by a black woman since my experience as an Asian and as a minority was not considered to be as "damaging" or as "difficult to endure" as hers. Shit.

I'm still a non white and I felt that at times growing up that was held against me. That being said who is to say now as an adult that any one minorities' struggle is more or less than? So hard to say and that is not to say that the Asian/Hispanic/other experience is less than.

I was teased "chinky" "slope" "go back to saigon" etc. growing up is that less valid? people often assume I don't speak english....

Now in Ny they assume I am a FOB = fresh off the boat I'm not.

Or that my parents are a green grocer or a drycleaner owner or that I take tae kwon do which I don't.

shit.

Just now, well, at least yesterday there is yet another shooting of a possibly unarmed black man in a not exactly Tony area of Queens. Sharpton is all over that. When does it stop? the media circus, the horrible mistakes made by the cops. it is very disturbing on a lot of levels.

There's this young man in my city, and he is like an activist for mentally impaired people. He is retarded, but okay enough to get a HS degree. his family has fought for rights for retarded people and so he is sort of well- know. Anyway, in line to vote a few weeks ago, I was surprised to see him there with his dad. Is there a mental level before you're allowed to vote? Serious question.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
Interesting response. I wonder what it would have been if we were talking about the historical impact of homophobia in this country.

(I get the joke you're making about my disagreement with Spanky and how that should mean to him that I am as bitter as you. I just wonder why this can be overlooked with a quick punchline without a substantive response, while if we were arguing about homophobia, it wouldn't.)

TM

I guess it would depend on whether I felt like making a serious response or not. I'm pretty all over the map on whether I'm willing to enter into these sorts of discussions in a serious way.* I don't really have anything to add to the debate on this issue that hasn't already been said. If I were coming down on one side or the other, I would be much closer to your side than to Spanky's, but I'm sure you could guess that.

My response wasn't actually nuanced enough to even be a commentary on Spanky's sexist ways. I was just making fun of his calling me a stalker. I sort of forgot about the whole bitter thing.

Not very bitter of me, I guess. I need to work on that.



*Since we're all lawyer geeks here, I'll note that I draw a distinction between drive-by jokes thrown into serious discussions and throwing in a serious comment to something that turns out to be an offiensive string of "jokes" that seemingly will not stop on its own. Generally speaking, I don't use these boards to have serious discussions, because that is not fun to me. And it is all about me.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
I guess it would depend on whether I felt like making a serious response or not. I'm pretty all over the map on whether I'm willing to enter into these sorts of discussions in a serious way.* I don't really have anything to add to the debate on this issue that hasn't already been said. If I were coming down on one side or the other, I would be much closer to your side than to Spanky's, but I'm sure you could guess that.

My response wasn't actually nuanced enough to even be a commentary on Spanky's sexist ways. I was just making fun of his calling me a stalker. I sort of forgot about the whole bitter thing.

Not very bitter of me, I guess. I need to work on that.



*Since we're all lawyer geeks here, I'll note that I draw a distinction between drive-by jokes thrown into serious discussions and throwing in a serious comment to something that turns out to be an offiensive string of "jokes" that seemingly will not stop on its own. Generally speaking, I don't use these boards to have serious discussions, because that is not fun to me. And it is all about me.

I took his point to be you were a hypocrite and should maybe get off your soapbox, or stay on it, but stop this on and off.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
I guess it would depend on whether I felt like making a serious response or not. I'm pretty all over the map on whether I'm willing to enter into these sorts of discussions in a serious way.* I don't really have anything to add to the debate on this issue that hasn't already been said. If I were coming down on one side or the other, I would be much closer to your side than to Spanky's, but I'm sure you could guess that.

My response wasn't actually nuanced enough to even be a commentary on Spanky's sexist ways. I was just making fun of his calling me a stalker. I sort of forgot about the whole bitter thing.

Not very bitter of me, I guess. I need to work on that.



*Since we're all lawyer geeks here, I'll note that I draw a distinction between drive-by jokes thrown into serious discussions and throwing in a serious comment to something that turns out to be an offiensive string of "jokes" that seemingly will not stop on its own. Generally speaking, I don't use these boards to have serious discussions, because that is not fun to me. And it is all about me.

What's wrong with being Spanky?

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I agree with a lot of this. I think people who are hurt tend to lash out at other people and instinctively, depending on how hurt they are or how vindictive they are (or both), latch on to something they know (i) gives them power over their target* and (ii) is as hurtful as possible. I also agree that Richards' outburst came from somewhere deep inside.

However, I still think it's a good question. Can you have racist actions performed by someone who isn't racist? What is the magic line that makes someone racist? Is it that they actually believe the racial slurs they're using? Or is it the fact that they're willing to use them knowing their impact?

I think it's similar to when a 14-year old daughter screams "I hate you!" to her mother. The daughter doesn't really hate her mother - she's just trying to make the deepest emotional cut. In her mind, she thinks that comment will hurt her mother the most.

I'm sure there are people who have made racist comments but don't really believe "that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" (as defined by Websters). Rather, these people make racists comments b/c they believe that it's the most effective way to insult a minority. Of course, the latter doesn't justify it. Not in the least. These people are weakminded morons, assholes, dipshits, etc. They are losers. But I'm not sure that they're racists.

[patentparanyc]

I.
A) To prevent colds does that airborne supplement work????!!!!!! or echinicea? I have Lysol wipes need to try to prevent the flu. ahhh!


B) Wombat on a spiritual level....

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,232006,00.html

c.) Why are we beating this subject to death?

d.) I take a train that is 1 1/2 or so. I'm obv. one of the first stops. At one of the near to last stops on my line, the remainder of trip is approx 1/2 hour. At such time, it is very crowded. All those that get on have 1/2 hour to waste. [**not a lot of time okay??] and they all without fail do the following:

1.) demand the third seat on a bench which is quite uncomfortable for all involved.

2.) open up a broad sheet paper and not the nice polite fold as is stated in the commuter's bill of rights.

3.) usually have a stinky assed flavored coffee that reeks of fake hazelnut.

4.) usually whip their long coats in your face in their effort to eagerly plop their ass down for the stinkin half an hour.

It is a half and hour people. you will survive. those of us with the extra hour usually put on ipod and fall asleep. what, you get more obnoxious as you near the city? wtf?

II. Lastly, I don't see things in terms of race. I see things in an are you a good person/socio economically way. Do they treat me well? Are they pleasant to be around?

Certain things we'd term as "ghetto" I would not care if the participants were white, black, asian or hispanic that could be construed as annoying.

If a partner is an idiot, he would be so whether he was white black asian or hispanic. his partnerness does not absolve him of the standard is he a nice person/pleasant to be around.

race really doesn't have anything to do with it. redneck whites can be unpleasant to be around as well.

I mean it is a nice person/class/socioeconomic thing more than race.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
A white cuts a black guy off ( a black guy cuts me off)- what is the first thought? I think me and 99% of whites think "that black person cut me off." I'm sure 99% of black people have the same first thought. A white guy cuts me off, "the asshole cut me off."

Unless you are in the minority group that doesn't recognize race in that question, you are using race in some manner in how you evaluate a person- and that is arguably a racist thing to do. I think most people are racist in this way, which is a point Spanky kind of tried to make is his post. The question is what can people do to be less negative in how they are racist.

I don't think this is true. I never think, "That white guy just cut me off" when I'm driving or when some jackass does something stupid on the subway or in an elevator (as we discussed last week). I don't doubt that in places that are very segregated, those thoughts occur on both sides more.

In general, black people are defined by their color. It's the first thing you see and there is a stigma attached to it that we cannot control. Therefore, when you see us, that's what you see (Invisible Man Syndrome) first and foremost. Hell, even my white friends say things like, "He's a handsome black man."* It makes no sense to me that they feel the need to add the word, "black," but it's reflexive.

The real question is, when you get upset at something that has nothing to do with race, is your first thought a racial one? I don't walk around thinking, "that white bitch," or "that honky" or whatever when someone pisses me off by being stupid. If a young black man wearing a do-rag cuts a white guy off, are they thinking about the offensive action or some stereotype or slur? And what does that say?

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Personally, I don't think the choice to use a word, or not, is that determinitive of what a person is at heart. the word might be a hateful one, and one most white people well know not to use, but most white people have said it. It is bullshit to claim otherwise. I promised that my children would never hear me say it, and would hear me criticize anyone else we heard say it, and caution my kids not to use it (I hadn't anticipated the influence of rap in my family's life). I haven't used it for decades, and feel pretty safe in saying I will never use it again, BUT it is bullshit to say ANYONE who uses it is a horrible person. Like Atticus Finch says "It's a word only ignorant people use Scout." But when a word in is all of our mental rolodexes, I'm not sure the difference between "in your brain" and "on your tongue," means as much as sometimes is argued.

While I think racism and racial issues are pounded into us since birth to the extent that everything we see, we put into some type of racial context, having a negative thought pop into your head and transferring that thought into an actual expression are two entirely different things. And I think there is a significant gap between the two.

How can it be that all of us can control ourselves at work when some jackass partner does something incalculably stupid or inconsiderate and we are able to control ourselves from calling him/her a fucking dumbass cock-sucking motherfucker, but somehow when it comes to racial slurs slipping out, it's a different story? Taking that extra step toward a slur, knowing what's behind it, is significant in my mind.

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
To me the content of what Richards said was way more hateful than the word.

Change what he said:

Version 1: Take every N***** out and replace it with "black", now Version 2: he says n***** to the guys 36 times in a row. To me verison 1 is far worse.

I disagree. Although I'm not going to argue about which version in your hypothetical is worse, the word "nigger" is shorthand for all of the things Richards said in your version 1. It is specifically meant to recall all of those nasty things and to make the other person feel subhuman. That's what makes it such an offensive word.

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
To me the true test is how you treat people. Do you give people the chances you have to give regardless of race. do you choose stores/professionals/ etc. color blind? If in a position of hiring are you colorblind? Shit like that is to me where the line lies- at least the most important line. But to say "do you recognize a racial difference" is the test, makes "overcoming racism" a goal that is not really possible*.

I think you've knocked down your own strawman. Of course people's actions are important. But are you arguing that a person's choice of words don't play a significant role in defining that person? With your driving hypothetical, you've convinced yourself that noticing someone's race is a half step behind using a racial slur. And if noticing someone's race is going to make someone a racist, then we're never going to get anywhere. However, I think there is a signficant difference between noticing someone's race (or even thinking negative things about someone's race as a reflex when they upset you) and taking the next step and uttering a racial slur. And if you tend to use racial slurs, you are a racist.

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
in America- there is a This American Life (great NPR show) where the subject was "Changing Who you Are". One of the stories was about black Americans who have relocated to Paris. 2 or 3 were interviewed and the story was that it took them a few months to realize that the color was no longer the main thing about them. that first question I asked was answered differently- they were really pleased with the difference

A lot of black people have this kind of experience when they go to Africa. They are amazed that they are just people and not black people there. It's a completely different and foreign (in the other sense of the word) experience. Imagine, that's how white people must feel here all the time. Must be nice.

Hell, I've never been to Africa, but the few times I've been to black countries, it was something else. When someone looks at you and judges you, they're doing so because you're American or because you're a tourist, not because you're black.

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
** the one downside was 2 women who spoke of how in the States they could cut a line of white people, like for a movie, and pretend they didn't see the line- if anybody said anything they glared. They tried to pull that act in Paris and it didn't work at all.

Yeah. Black people sure do act poorly at the movies.

TM

*Clearly when they are referring to someone else.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall

A lot of black people have this kind of experience when they go to Africa. They are amazed that they are just people and not black people there. It's a completely different and foreign (in the other sense of the word) experience. Imagine, that's how white people must feel here all the time. Must be nice.

Hell, I've never been to Africa, but the few times I've been to black countries, it was something else. When someone looks at you and judges you, they're doing so because you're American or because you're a tourist, not because you're black.

TM

*Clearly when they are referring to someone else.

When I lived in the UK, it was very odd not to see "Hispanic" as an option when marking down race/ethnicity on various forms.

ETA: And Hank, anyone who cuts me off is an asshole. Their race matters not an iota in that determination.

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
I took his point to be you were a hypocrite and should maybe get off your soapbox, or stay on it, but stop this on and off.

No. That was not my intention. I thought she would be more willing to have a discussion about the history and impact of homophobia, yes. But I am not calling her a hypocrite. And if true, I was just wondering why that is. The fact that I tend to pound discussions about race into the ground is a perfectly legitimate reason why you might not want to spend time discussing it. Hell, I couldn't call her a hypocrite because I don't spend a lot of time discussing the historical impact of homophobia.

TM

[ThurgreedMarshall]

Originally posted by Did you just call me Coltrane?
I think it's similar to when a 14-year old daughter screams "I hate you!" to her mother. The daughter doesn't really hate her mother - she's just trying to make the deepest emotional cut. In her mind, she thinks that comment will hurt her mother the most.

I'm sure there are people who have made racist comments but don't really believe "that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race" (as defined by Websters). Rather, these people make racists comments b/c they believe that it's the most effective way to insult a minority. Of course, the latter doesn't justify it. Not in the least. These people are weakminded morons, assholes, dipshits, etc. They are losers. But I'm not sure that they're racists.

I think this is the general take on things. But I have a couple of responses.

1. Grown people are grown people and should have some type of control over themselves. Calling someone a "spic" may be similar to when a 14 year old lashes out at her mommy for being unfair, but, as an adult, you are responsible for what you say.

2. Don't overlook the power dynamic. The use of the word, "nigger" by a white person to a black person is a way to reassert the power that white person has over that black person. And while that white person may not actually believe that white people are the superior race, they are attempting to apply their historical superior position* in relation to blacks anytime they use the word. In my opinion, that makes you a racist.

TM

*Whether they are trying to make themselves feel better or superior or whether they are trying to make their target feel worse or inferior or both.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

That there is an upskirt picture of Britney wearing no underwear on www.wwtdd.com. She is tiddy.

Thanks to everyone who talked up the current season of The Wire on here. I spent a good part of the weekend getting caught up.

[Did you just call me Coltrane?]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
I think this is the general take on things. But I have a couple of responses.

1. Grown people are grown people and should have some type of control over themselves. Calling someone a "spic" may be similar to when a 14 year old lashes out at her mommy for being unfair, but, as an adult, you are responsible for what you say.

2. Don't overlook the power dynamic. The use of the word, "nigger" by a white person to a black person is a way to reassert the power that white person has over that black person. And while that white person may not actually believe that white people are the superior race, they are attempting to apply their historical superior position* in relation to blacks anytime they use the word. In my opinion, that makes you a racist.

TM

*Whether they are trying to make themselves feel better or superior or whether they are trying to make their target feel worse or inferior or both.

I agree with this. I also think that Wonk's kid's generation may be the first to not recognize the so-called "power".

[bold_n_brazen]

I am currently attending on-line traffic school. Y'all are not doing your part to make it more enjoyable.

[Jack Manfred]

Originally posted by ThurgreedMarshall
And dark skinned blacks do the same [shit] to light-skinned. So fucking what? ... Did we need to institute remedial measures to try and fix the harm that that's caused?

Does School Daze count as a remedial measure?