Fashionistas you have arrived 3-25-03 - 10-3-03

[andViolins]

Originally posted by dealtoy
Very sad story here.

Do I agree to go to dinner with her?
Do I tell her I have to work late and come home and talk to her?
Do I try to get into our couples therapist tomorrow for a session and try to stall her for a day?


More sad story.


Thanks for your thoughts.

My thought would be to get into a therapy session. Saying you have to work late and putting it off is not going to help anything, and probably lead her to state that you are playing games/lying to her. You are having issues in confronting the situation. I certainly don't blame you. Therefore, I don't think that dinner with her will go well under any scenario. Thus, I think you need the help of a third party professional.

All I can do is wish you, your wife and your kids the best of luck.

aV

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

DT,

Please call the guy who was best man at your wedding, or some other close friend who knows you both, and talk this through. Don't listen to whatever advice is given on a chat board in between debates over counting sex partners.

If for some reason you find you no longer have anyone to call (and I know that thanks to this grind I have fewer friends for this kind of call than I used to), then take a breath, go home, have dinner with your wife and tell her you're going to quit your job and you can work on things for another few months, but another kid should not be in the works given this life change.

Otherwise, tell her you're coming home late and spend the evening talking to your friend.

G Qbed

(Editted to add: but don't lie to her about coming home late; let her know why if she asks and deal with it) -- more advice from some guy on a chat board

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by dealtoy
My marriage in on a runaway train about to crash.

Do I agree to go to dinner with her?
Do I tell her I have to work late and come home and talk to her?
Do I try to get into our couples therapist tomorrow for a session and try to stall her for a day?

What if she wants to leave tonight with my 4 year old? Do I try to stop her?

Thanks for your thoughts.

I know this is really awful for you. The best thing that you can probably do is be honest with her as quickly as possible. At home if possible so she doesn't get upset in public.

It will be hard. She will be mad. Maybe there is still room for discussion of how things will work out with her and maybe there is not. You will have a better feel for that once you start the discussion(s) with her.

It is really hard to hurt someone you care about, but it is also important to listen to yourself. It sounds like if you are talking to a therapist and really reflecting on things yourself, you probably have a feel in your heart for what is right.

I'm sorry you are going through this. Don't spend too much time blaming yourself. Best of luck.

n(been there,done that, thankfully no kids)cs

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by dealtoy
Do I agree to go to dinner with her?
Do I tell her I have to work late and come home and talk to her?
Do I try to get into our couples therapist tomorrow for a session and try to stall her for a day?

What if she wants to leave tonight with my 4 year old? Do I try to stop her?
. . .
And then I question myself, maybe I should be trying. But then I tell myself I have tried for so long and can't see how this could ever get better.

Note: I'm not a divorce attorney, I'm not a therapist, my advice is worth as much as you're paying for it.

First, I'm terribly sorry that you're going through this. It must be devastating.

You're going to have to tell her soon that it's over. The sooner, the better. The longer you wait, the more miserable you're going to be and the more she's going to try with pushing you towards another child.

Tonight is probably not a good idea to bring this up, if she's expecting a celebration of some sort tonight. Put her off with some excuse. Given what you've said about her temper in the past, it may be a good idea to have a third party present, so making a therapist appointment tomorrow is not necessarily a bad idea.

Plan on having a place to stay for tomorrow night if not longer. If you can, make sure that you can stay somewhere nearby, so you can see the kids as much as possible.

Your children probably know that tensions have been running high between you and your wife, and it may be best in the long run to get things started when most of them are not there.

Tomorrow morning, start looking for a good divorce attorney, if you do not already have one retained. If you're concerned about her taking your child when she is informed about the divorce, retain the attorney before you tell her about the divorce.

If there are any other family members that can help you with your four year old, you might want to let them know that you're going to need them to step up to the plate.

You're going to need your support system to be there for you. Find at least one person who will support you on EVERYTHING, and at least one person who is willing to play devils advocate on her behalf every now and then.

Again, I'm truly sorry about all of this, and I hope that it is not as bad as you fear.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
YOU are illogical. You have vehemently insisted that hand jobs at football games (?) aren't sex, but a hand job that you pay for is sex? Is it the money? What if you took the football handjobber out for dinner before the game?

And, she can't get pregnant and (in your delusional world) you can't get a disease from the stripper/massage girl, so where's the risk?

And, nothing personal, but I pretty much always find you offensive so what you said about being tongue in cheek (or whatever) was unnecessary.

I am nothing if not consistent...

1. One need not have SEX with a person other than one's spouse to cheat. A hand job is NEVER AMONG RATIONAL NORMAL PEOPLE CONSIDERED SEX.

2. Dinner/money has nothing to do with it. Sex is defined by penetration in the vagina or anus unless you are a lesbian. A hand job cannot be considered penetration, unless you are a hand puppet.

3. That the massage girl cannot get pregnant has nothing to do with whether or not a handjob is sex and its also not relevant to this discussion. You have accidentally or purposely confused the "What is sex?" query with the the "What is cheating?" query. You obviously did this because its the sole means by which you can support your utterly unsupportable definitions. However, blurring my points to make me look inconsistent does not make you correct.

S(I take nothing personal - this is simply dispassionate logic)D

I think you need to have a long talk with her and just tell the truth without beating around the bush - you tried, you thought you could make things better, but now you've made your decision. Tell her as soon as possible - don't waffle. You've been thinking about this for a long time and things haven't improved. Don't go to dinner shince she thinks it is a celebration. Find a way to talk about it at home this week or somewhere neutral. If you had any hope that things might improve, I don't think you were dishonest. She is probably going to be angry with you no matter what you say or how you say it. And the kids would feel betrayed even if they were at home - that's how these things work, unfortunately.

I personally don't put much stock in therapists, but perhaps yours has some suggestions that will be helpful. I do suggest you retain an attorney as soon as possible who will have more practical advice for financial issues, etc. It would be preferable for you to meet with a family law attorney before you talk to her, if that is possible.

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan

You're going to need your support system to be there for you. Find at least one person who will support you on EVERYTHING, and at least one person who is willing to play devils advocate on her behalf every now and then.

Excellent advice, RT. Also realize that not everyone will be supportive. You really find out who you can count on during messy times. There are a lot of people out there who have their own issues and problems and for whatever reason cannot accept when someone actually takes action to get out of a marriage. If you have any friends who have been through this sort of thing, that might be a good place to start. A good friend can make a huge difference to a person going through a big break-up.

Again, good luck!

[cheval de frise]

Originally posted by NotFromHere
You sound like you really need some space and time to think without all of the pressure. Maybe you could use a separation for this purpose. If you find that you miss her and want her back - then your decision is made. If you find that you feel that a gigantic weight has been lifted from you, then you should proceed with the divorce and hopefully a generous visitation schedule.

Best of luck - divorce is always hard - it should be hard especially when there are children. No one ever takes that decision lightly and neither should you. Take some time - don't rush into anything and never feel like you've been pushed into a decision you didn't want to make.

This is excellent advice. I also agree with the other posters who suggested working late tonight and trying to schedule a therapy appointment tomorrow.

If you do decide on separation, you'll have to distinguish your feelings toward your wife from your feelings towards your kids. You won't be able to see them all the time, and if the only time you DO see them is when she's around, there might be a "halo" effect from missing them that clouds your perception towards her. You need to spend time by yourself, and time with just the kids, AND one-on-one time with your wife in order to sort all of this out. If you can achieve a stable psychological environment living apart, with both of you still being able to see the kids frequently, then you might be better able to figure out what it is you really want, and how you can get there from here.

Until you do get it sorted out, I'd limit the amount of time you spend together as a full family...no matter how much the little ones pressure you to do "family" things. If there hasn't been a lot of screaming/yelling/cruelty/serious unpleasantness that they can see/feel, they may try hard to convince you to stay with mommy. And if the oldest is under ten, the kids are probably scared more than anything else - they just want it to be ok. But
don't fool yourself into thinking they don't know what's going on. Adults don't give children near enough credit in that regard. Be straight up with them, particularly the two oldest (in an age-appropriate way, obviously).

Good luck. I hope everything works out for the best, whatever that may be.

CDF

[ltl/fb]

Originally posted by dealtoy
Do I agree to go to dinner with her?
Do I tell her I have to work late and come home and talk to her?
Do I try to get into our couples therapist tomorrow for a session and try to stall her for a day?

What if she wants to leave tonight with my 4 year old? Do I try to stop her?

I spoke to my therapist and he said it sounds like I am sure. I don't feel sure. He also said that he thinks I tried hard. I wonder about that.

She is going to be angry and say that I tricked her.
She is going to be crying and devestated and say that I ruined her life.

My kids are going to be upset that this happened while they were away.
They are going to feel betrayed.

I am so frightened, but so tired of this deception.

And then I question myself, maybe I should be trying. But then I tell myself I have tried for so long and can't see how this could ever get better.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Like RT said, I'm not a family lawyer or a therapist and remember you are getting this advice on a chatboard.

As you have noted in your subject line, this has been going on for at least 2 years. Don't see her until you can see the couples' therapist. If possible, see your therapist again before that (probably not possible) and have him go over the part about how you are sure. Maybe prep the couple's therapist ahead of time by saying you want to tell your wife during the session that you want a divorce.

Your relationship sounds, frankly, hellish and that has got to be hurting your kids as much or more than a divorce would, assuming you can retain some kind of relationship with them post-divorce. Eventually they will realize that you are in many ways making it possible for their mom to be a complete wackjob. You can't be their savior in any event and having their main conception of what a relationship is coming from your relationship with your wife has got to be seriously fucking with their heads.

You have been wanting to leave her for, like, forever, which makes me think you are sure that you would be better off apart, but that you kind of like being needed by her -- or fear being abandoned by her if (I really mean when) you leave. Meaning, you would like to have some kind of more distant relationship with her, b/c you feel a responsibility and/or b/c of the kids, but you are worried that if you leave her she will cut herself off entirely.

I know your primary concern is for your kids. The constant uncertainty has got to be hard on them and really, seeing the two of you in a really bad relationship is bad bad bad.

I would go with the separation idea but I think you have already tried that and either she is unable to sustain or it didn't help. This is way too complex for typing!

Good luck.

[ms. naughty diplomat]

Originally posted by notcasesensitive
Wow if having an orgasm is a requirement for it to be considered sex, my number just dropped significantly.

would faking an orgasm count as having sex?

[ABBAKiss]

Originally posted by ms. naughty diplomat
would faking an orgasm count as having sex?

No. It counts as a workout, but not as sex.

[leagleaze]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield

** Gay women have a much more open definition for obvious reasons.

Good thing. I was about to think I hadn't had sex in 8 years, and damn, in that case, I really need to get laid.

And if you think a handjob can't be sex (at least when performed on a woman) under any circumstances, you aren't thinking very hard.

In my past life:

I do not know how you feel about it, but you were male in your last earthly incarnation.
You were born somewhere around the territory of modern Turkey approximately in 1350.
Your profession was librarian, priest, keeper of tribal relics.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your brief psychological profile in that past life:
You always liked to travel, to investigate, could have been detective or spy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lesson, that your last past life brought to present:
Your lesson -- development and expansion of your mental consciousness. Find good teacher, spend a part of your time and energy on his wisdom.


And finally Deal Toy I have no advice to offer, but I'm sorry you are going through this.

[idle acts]

Originally posted by leagleaze
Good thing. I was about to think I hadn't had sex in 8 years, and damn, in that case, I really need to get laid.

You really shouldn't encourage bi-berry like this. . .

[leagleaze]

Originally posted by idle acts
You really shouldn't encourage bi-berry like this. . .

Heh. I was more making fun of Sd. Good point though.


Hey bi-berry, note the sarcasm alert

[bridge of love]

Originally posted by ms. naughty diplomat
i could respond to your allegations, but instead, i think i will just let the fact that you are so clueless that you think that debtslave is a man speak for itself as a representation of the accuracy of your posts

mnd

debtslave is a girl? that is soooo fucking cool! I made a girl laugh and then she complimented me!!!! I'm soooo fucking stoked. I'm going to post twice as much now. Yeah!!!!!!!!!

oh, thanks for telling me. you've made my day. since you've done that I will forgive you for being so mean earlier. go now, and sin no more.