Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by sgtclub
But I find it ridiculous that the unions are against vouchers and tout the public schools, while their members are sending their kids to private schools.

I absolutely agree. If teachers choose to use their money to pay private school tuition for their kids, then I think government should make private school tuition available for everyone. We have nothing to lose but our chains.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
No risk, no reward. I don't give a fuck what you do - if you don't put something on the line, you don't deserve to get paid. That, my self-righteous pal, is whats called capitalism.

This makes absolutely no sense--are you saying that any person who does not undertake a risk of earning zero salary doesn't deserve to get paid? Glad to hear that the salad days of the GA are done for.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by baltassoc
You're still pissed that Mrs. Hooper gave you a "C" on your essay on the wit and wisdom of The Fountainhead in 11th grade, aren't you?

$12,500 in benefits? Do you have any idea what your benefits cost your firm? What do they want, good health insurance and some sort of contribution to a retirement account? How dare they!

I have no doubt that there are lazy teachers who are paid too much. I also believe that teachers have made substantial advances in pay over the last decade, at least in the geographic areas where I have acquantences who teach. But it's still not the sweet life you make it out to be. And when you come to a point where you have kids, perhaps you will ask yourself "Am I really comfortable leaving my kid all day with someone who's best option in life was taking a job paying $30k a year?" You better hope that the reason s/he's there is because s/he's independantly wealthy and really likes kids.

My kids will go to private school because its the easiest guarantee of getting into a solid college. Again, you get what you pay for. Personally, having gone to private and public school, the only difference I ever saw was quality of available drugs (favoring private, of course), but the college market dictates that I must purchase the brats some prestige, so what the fuck. What else am I going to spend on? I hope I won't be drinking and blowing cash on crap by that age...

I'd really prefer to set my kids up with an apprenticeship with a developer in the area and give them the money I'd spend on college, because I think prestige colleges are a scam these days, but selah... that ain't going to happen. I LOVED college and it'd be unfair to rob the kids of the best and only four year party they're ever going to see.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
Hell, I should quit now and get a cushy govt job, or perhaps teach.

Uhm, if you want a nice government job where you help people solve problems, I might be able to help you get in. I like you that much! It starts at about 45K, decent benefits. Sometimes people die. But you save on the newspapers you won't want to read anymore, so that's gotta be worth an extra $500 or so. You have to smoke to work there, so hopefully that's not a problem.

Mostly, you deal with people who are asking the government to do what they should be doing themselves. Mostly, its because our stupid fucking government volunteered to do things for people that they should be doing for themselves. Sorta like an "if you build it, they will come" type deal, cept its more like "if you promise to take care of people's problems for them, they'll call you when they have problems they don't want to take care of".

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
This makes absolutely no sense--are you saying that any person who does not undertake a risk of earning zero salary doesn't deserve to get paid? Glad to hear that the salad days of the GA are done for.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm also advocating that we invite bin Laden over here for a summit and get moving on the Mars landing.

There are measures of risk we take. Teaching is the epitome of low risk. No law school/med school/businss start up costs to absorb. No major time investment (don't even try if you're going to argue about getting certificates). Its a low stress gig with commensurate pay.

And stop twisting my words to absurd conclusions. If you want a debate, fine, but don't jack me off with dodgy disingenuous retorts. You know goddamn well I didn't advocate everybody having to put everything on the line to get paid.

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Your comment is flawed for a few reasons. Most importantly, the public school education is not simply a product of the teachers efforts but operates in a broader context.
[Very good reasons to send kids to private schools]

I don't disagree that a teacher send his/her kid to private school is a rational choice in many cases. Nor, as I mentioned, do I think that it's a problem that can be solved by some sort of intervention. The only way to get more teachers to send their kids to public schools is to make the schools better.*

You nail the problem on the head: the issue is that the kid's education is dependant on so much more than the individual teacher's efforts. It depends on the administration, the community, the good people making curriculum decisions for the Great State of Texas, and perhaps most importantly, other teachers, whom a teacher can observe every day, and whom a teacher knows suck.

Nonetheless, a GM line worker isn't responsible for but a small piece of the car he buys either (if even that). I know from anecdotal data that this same impulse keeps some teachers' kids in public schools where they would otherwise go to private. Which is good, because on average teachers' kids are good for schools.


*The in no way involves charter schools or vouchers, both of which may improve the education of certain kids, but which will certainly harm the kids whose parents don't or can't advocate for them. I pose the hypothetical: does anyone on the board think that vouchers and charter schools will increase the number of teacher's kids going to public, non-charter schools? NFW.

[Diane_Keaton]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Meanwhile, the Governor also vetoed a bill that would have required hotels to install certain handicapped accessiblity and safety measures in bathrooms, on the ground that --- get this, now --- the legislation was "unneccessary" because the same result could be accomplished through regulations.

Presumably you read the full statement accompanying the veto and didn't rely on the "laudable but unnecessary" blurb of newspaper writers, correct?

[dtb]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
My kids will go to private school because its the easiest guarantee of getting into a solid college. Again, you get what you pay for.

Never mind. Reading comprehension blip.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
No risk, no reward. I don't give a fuck what you do - if you don't put something on the line, you don't deserve to get paid. That, my self-righteous pal, is whats called capitalism.

If you don't want to put the minimum wager down, don't cry for a seat at the table. That's not an unfair proposition in the least.

Jesus Christ, when did Americans develop this notion that there was a way other than actually paying for the ticket to get into the show?

Yeah, God forbid we pay them. After all, all the teachers have done is put themselves on the front line out of a mere sense of dedication. We certainly shouldn't reward them for educating our children, or dealing with issues like teen pregnancy, drug use, gangs, etc.

I too, believe in capitalism. Unfortunately, it speaks ill of our society that it values what I do more than what the people who teach my children do. There is certainly more utility to me spending my days figuring out ways to save a multi-billion dollar company millions of dollars so it can pay huge dividends to its British owner than there is in teaching kids to read and write, to become contributing members of society, and all too often, how to stay alive.

Sebby, this post of yours is another SD classic.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Western Michigan is seriously God's country. I was about 15 miles west of Ann Arbor last weekend, that is 15 miles outside Not God country, And saw a billboard on I-94 that basically said Jesus would vote for Bush/Cheney.

And in related news, House GOPers have placed to a vote today a federal law forbidding courts from ruling on challenges to the Pledge of Allegiance.

We've had the earlier debates on the constitutionality of this kind of jurisdiction stripping, so I won't belabor them here.

But could someone please put a leash on these fools? The Supremes already slapped down challenges to constitutionality of "under God," and Our Leader has assured us that in a second term the judiciary will be filled with Right-Thinking Judges.

So be cool. No need to bend and break the constitution when help is at hand to save the country's oppressed Baptists.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Say_hello_for_me
Let me guess, a suburban Democrat who couldn't point to the nearest public housing if she was getting mugged in its lobby. You still probably deserve a blowjob too.

What do I win?

Asshole of the month.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Asshole of the month.

No matter what you say, I don't think she'll sleep with you either.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Yeah, God forbid we pay them. After all, all the teachers have done is put themselves on the front line out of a mere sense of dedication. We certainly shouldn't reward them for educating our children, or dealing with issues like teen pregnancy, drug use, gangs, etc.

I too, believe in capitalism. Unfortunately, it speaks ill of our society that it values what I do more than what the people who teach my children do. There is certainly more utility to me spending my days figuring out ways to save a multi-billion dollar company millions of dollars so it can pay huge dividends to its British owner than there is in teaching kids to read and write, to become contributing members of society, and all too often, how to stay alive.

Sebby, this post of yours is another SD classic.

Hey, don't get me wrong... I wish it were different. I'd love to teach and give up this shitstain career, but hey... I've got these cards. These are the rules of the game, so I have to play. If I want to eat at nice joints, I have to put up with the excuses for humans who permeate this field (and most similar fields) like lice on a bum's scalp. I can't get together with buddies and demand more, so why should teachers be allowed to do so?

But I will grant you this... I'm not half as offended at teachers getting more than I am at govt workers getting more. At least teachers aren't purposefully dragging on the economy and suckling at the subsistence teat.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield


And stop twisting my words to absurd conclusions. If you want a debate, fine, but don't jack me off with dodgy disingenuous retorts. You know goddamn well I didn't advocate everybody having to put everything on the line to get paid.

Oops. Sorry for stealing your schtick. But you seem to think that the sole determinant of pay is how risky income from the job is. While, sure, that's one component, but there's also a value-added aspect that greatly outweighs the risk involved. While teachers may add little value, I very much doubt you think that, seeing as you're willing to pay sizable amounts of money to put your kids through private schools (which, it has been shown, do not themselves add much to ultimate income).

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield

But I will grant you this... I'm not half as offended at teachers getting more than I am at govt workers getting more. At least teachers aren't purposefully dragging on the economy and suckling at the subsistence teat.

Who are these government workers of which you speak? The ones fighting in Iraq or defending the country elsewhere? The ones who will douse your housefire after you leave the joint blazing on the sofa? The ones you don't want teaching your kids in public schools?