Politics: Where we struggle to kneel in the muck.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I don't disagree that the VP debate makes little if any difference.

Watch the stories about Cheney's disregard for the truth over the next few days. People have already posted on the web a story about Cheney and Edwards attending a breakfast together, and apparently there's a photograph of the two of them. So much for the "we've never met" attack.

eta:



Cheney's got a little truth problem.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Atticus Grinch
Maybe the website was faked, but I believe it was accurate.

I invented this.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore

• ABC News' Poll
  NBC's Tom Brokaw
  MSNBC's Ron Reagan
  MSNBC's Chris Matthews
  MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell
  MSNBC's Joe Scarborough

You forgot to mention Mrs. Not Bob, who watched while I watched the Evil Empire suffer a defeat at the hands of the Twinkies. Of course, she said something along the lines of "damn, he's an evil bastard, isn't he? And yet so avuncular!" In short, Cheney's got gravitas, and the format was perfect for him.

The parts I saw suggested that it was a push, with both sides making their supporters happy, and neither side committing any "why am I here?" gaffe. George Will agreed with me, although now that I think about it, why the hell wasn't he watching the baseball game?

[dtb]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I think the big loser in this debate was Bush. Cheney made him look really bad.

I thought the exact same thing. Each of Cheney and Edwards seemed to speak effectively to their constituencies, and Cheney certainly showed that he has "gravitas" and can speak in paragraph form, which, of course, only makes it abundantly clear who's really running the show. Depending on your point of view, that's either a good thing or a bad thing, but the contrast Cheney displayed to his stammering, incoherent boss was striking.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by ltl/fb
Honest to god, I thought that the "W Stands For Women" page was a satire. Can someone confirm that, for true, georgewbush.com is not a satire site? Thanks.

Well some of the other parts of www.georgewbush.com seem ridiculous to me, but I'm pretty sure it's the official campaign site.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by SlaveNoMore
Courtesy of Geraghty :

• ABC News' Poll Shows 43 percent think Vice President Cheney won debate, only 35 percent think Edwards won. (ABC's "Special Coverage," 10/5/04)
  
  NBC's Tom Brokaw: "Dick Cheney Reminded Me Of George Foreman, Kind Of A Slow Gait, But A Powerful Right-Hand When He Unleashed It In A Number Of Areas As He Went After The Kerry-Edwards Ticket." (NBC's "Special Coverage," 10/5/04)
  
  MSNBC's Ron Reagan: "This Time, I Think The Chattering Classes, And I Include All Of Us Among Them, Will Come Out On The Side Of There Was A Stature Gap There, And It Was To Cheney's Advantage." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/5/04)
  
  MSNBC's Chris Matthews Calls The Debate Between Vice President Cheney The "Howitzer" And Senator John Edwards The "Water Pistol." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/05/04)
  
  MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell: "I Think Dick Cheney Did Awfully Well, At, First Of All, Putting John Edwards In His Place. Saying That I Have Been Presiding Over The Senate, And I Didn't Meet You Until Tonight. Talking About His Not Having Been On The Job Was Pretty Devastating." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/5/04)
  
  MSNBC's Joe Scarborough: "I Tell You, Tonight, No Doubt About It, Edwards Got Obliterated By Dick Cheney. This Is The Most Surprising Part. This Debate Actually Turned In Cheney's Direction When They Started Talking About Domestic Issues. I Thought Cheney Handled The Foreign Policy Issues Very Well." (MSNBC's "Hardball," 10/5/04)

Start with CBS News Poll

Then you should actually read the poll you cite , which notes that after the debate the surveyed sample shifted by 1% towards Kerry (which is exactly my point - Cheney made good debating points, but confirmed for everyone that we don't like him). The analysis of the poll was, an edge to Cheney on debating points, but an edge to Edwards on appeal to the electorate. That poll also notes that the audience was more Republican, which effects their numbers. If you want to call that a win, then bully for Cheney.

The reporting I saw flipping on all major channels (including Fox and CNN) suggested that Edwards got the more positive coverage, with a lot of people treating Cheney with the kind of grudging respect you give a bully to his face.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by sgtclub

I think the big loser in this debate was Bush. Cheney made him look really bad.

My only thought on the debate was "Both of these guys are so much smarter and shrewder than the idiots they work for." Listening to Cheney was the equivalent of seeing a huge curtain lifted with a massive "Here's George Bush's Brain!" sign behind it. If I had any doubt about who makes decisions in the White House, it was cured last night. As to Edwards, I kept envisioning Carville slapping Kerry's pompadour and barking "Now that is how you CONNECT with people, you fucking stiff bastard... this kid's wet behind the ears and he's converted more housewives in the past hour and a half than you've converted in the last ten months!"

[Replaced_Texan]

And I'm not quite sure where to assign blame.

Yesterday, I heard that the Brits pulled the license of one of two manufacturers of the 'flu vaccine, and 48 million doses will be destroyed. Obviously, this isn't something our public health officials were planning on when orders were placed this year. But it was very clear last year that the vaccine supply was too low AND infectious disease doctors have been telling me since mid-summer that this year's 'flu season is going to be very bad. I'm pissed off that there are only two manufacturers. I'm pissed off at plaintiffs attorneys that no one wants to make vaccines because of the liability associated with vaccines and so the only company willing to make vaccines is off shore (vulnerable to having its license pulled by the Brits and not overseen by the FDA).

I was planning on getting a 'flu shot this year due to the doom and gloom warnings from the ID docs, but now I'm going to hold off. My great-grandfather died in the 1917 pandemic, and last year's 'flu season was particularly bad. If you have older parents or grandparents, or small children, make sure that they get their vaccines early.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=4072683
(series of NPR stories on the subject)

ETA: I understand the argument that until last year we generally threw vaccine away due to over production, but it was very clear that this year we were going to need at least as much vaccine as we used last year.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
My only thought on the debate was "Both of these guys are so much smarter and shrewder than the idiots they work for." Listening to Cheney was the equivalent of seeing a huge curtain lifted with a massive "Here's George Bush's Brain!" sign behind it. If I had any doubt about who makes decisions in the White House, it was cured last night. As to Edwards, I kept envisioning Carville slapping Kerry's pompadour and barking "Now that is how you CONNECT with people, you fucking stiff bastard... this kid's wet behind the ears and he's converted more housewives in the past hour and a half than you've converted in the last ten months!"

I thought Edwards came off as a slick too-Southern trial lawyer, smooth talker, snake oil salesman. The too-Southern is important because there are no Southern states in play (besides the one).

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
My great-grandfather died in the 1917 pandemic, and last year's 'flu season was particularly bad. If you have older parents or grandparents, or small children, make sure that they get their vaccines early.

Great-grandmother died here. It could happen again.

Also, older kids with asthma or other respiratory ailments need to get their vaccines.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Not Bob

The parts I saw suggested that it was a push, with both sides making their supporters happy, and neither side committing any "why am I here?" gaffe. George Will agreed with me, although now that I think about it, why the hell wasn't he watching the baseball game?

It was a push, but thats not good enough for the GOP right now. Cheney started in a hole. Bush made a fool of himself last week - objectively, he looked outclassed and outwitted (the GOP can thank God he was debating Kerry instead of Edwards - Edwards would have eviscerated him). Cheney's job was to go out there and comfort the smart base and the wavering swing voters - remind them that, yes, there is a very strong intellect in the White House. I think he did that very effectively. The man clearly has some serious grey matter, and unlike his boss, he can shift gears to keep up with a lawyer opponent. Cheney wisely played to his strengths and didn't let Edwards drag him into protracted discussions on economics and domestic issues where the GOP has major holes in its policies. And he nailed his "I'm the man to keep you safe" pitch at the end. BUT, in the end, all he did, and all he could do, was repair concerns, based on the presently bleak news cycle and Bush's debate performance, that we had someone unqualified in the Oval Office. I think Cheney rehabbed Bush so that he'll be on almost even footing with Kerry going into the next debate. Bush would do well to refer to Cheney's arguments and to refer to Cheney himself. He should highlight the experience difference between Cheney and Edwards.

The problem I see for Bush now is that Cheney is no longer the liability - Bush is. In that regard, Cheney may have done his job too well, but I guess he had no choice.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Watch the stories about Cheney's disregard for the truth over the next few days. People have already posted on the web a story about Cheney and Edwards attending a breakfast together, and apparently there's a photograph of the two of them. So much for the "we've never met" attack.

eta:



Cheney's got a little truth problem.

Radio program this morning also made the observation that Cheney does come to the Senate on many Tuesdays, but it's usually limited to the Republican leadership luncheons. It's not so much that he never sees Edwards there, it's that he never sees Democrats. And that's by design.

[Say_hello_for_me]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Radio program this morning also made the observation that Cheney does come to the Senate on many Tuesdays, but it's usually limited to the Republican leadership luncheons. It's not so much that he never sees Edwards there, it's that he never sees Democrats. And that's by design.

you let your blue walls get in the way of these facts
Honey, get your carpetbaggers off my back

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by sgtclub
I think the big loser in this debate was Bush. Cheney made him look really bad.

2. Instead of playing the low expectations game of "Hey! Look how much better GWB did this time!", now they have to worry about whether Bush on Friday can do anything remotely similar to Cheney's performance. He can't.

Both guys did well in that they were well prepared, articulate defenders of their positions and neither was inclined to back down from a fight.

I don't think there was a winner, but Edwards helped himself a bit more than did Cheney, because he showed that he could come out swinging and thereby disposed of the "too nice" label.

Agree with SAM that the exchange over the gay daughter issue was interesting. It made me (momentarily) forget how much I disagree with the man's policies and made me feel bad for him. At least in this small respect, the GOP God Squad is stomping on Cheney and his family, and it's painful to watch.

[Greedy,Greedy,Greedy]

Originally posted by Gattigap
Radio program this morning also made the observation that Cheney does come to the Senate on many Tuesdays, but it's usually limited to the Republican leadership luncheons. It's not so much that he never sees Edwards there, it's that he never sees Democrats. And that's by design.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, too, but doesn't Edwards have a vote that Cheney would want and should be seeking, where if the Dems are looking for Cheney's vote on a tie-breaker the discussions are not likely to be driven by Edwards but by the elected Senate leadership? Isn't what Cheney really said when he did this that he's not doing his job, the job of reaching out across the aisle to build a consensus?

If the two of them haven't had a substantive discussion in any of their meetings, it strikes me that's Cheney's problem.