Patting the wrists, rolling the eyes.

[bilmore]

More evidence that it'll be Prez Hillary in 2008:

"Half of all pregnancies in the United States are unintended, and nearly half of those are terminated," Clinton said. "Making contraception more accessible and affordable is critical to reducing the number of unintended pregnancies."

Smartest way to appeal to both sides of that particular fight I've seen. Others have certainly tried, but she seems to be saying the right things in a better way.

(Just so there's no question: I don't like her. I just think she's inevitable.)

[Diane_Keaton]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I will concede that many people reasonably doubt that Terri Schiavo would have wanted to have her feeding tube pulled in these circumstances;

You think that even the easier standard of proof required (to show what Teri would have wanted) was not met. i.e., there is reasonable doubt whether Teri would have wanted her tube pulled. In light of this, I think it's fucked up that you are criticizing Bilmore and such.

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
uhhh, Dimwit. She's braindead. We can't know what she wanted. Maybe that's what caused the reaction.

Uh, no. If she were brain dead the stem would be gone too and it wouldn't be as big of an issue.

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by bilmore
No, apparently, (bad pun?), his father answered that for them. How come everyone likes to simply meander past this main point?
.

Because the situtation was the same: no living will; an "expression" of desire to family members. If you want to argue about the strength of teh evidence, fine, but since you've been saying "sign the paper" for the last week, Charles Delay's failure to do so should have the same repercussions, no?

[Replaced_Texan]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Why not? Seems far more relevant than Bush's signing the Texas bill. This isn't simply supporting a restriction on abortion rights when your daughter had an abortion--it's his advancing legislation specific to one person to revisit a question that he and his family answered in regard to his father.

ETA: And I don't buy the line drawing that Delay's dad needed a ventilator whereas this is "just" food and water. How the mechanical administration of air is different from the mechanical administration of food/water is beyond me. Nor is the distinction between a "chance to live" any different--the evidence that Schiavo will never recover is no less overwhelming than that confronted by the Delays (who apparently didn't even wait 15 years to give dad a chance to live).

In the end, one can leave the decision to the family or one can leave the decision to the state. Delay ws happy with teh former for himself, but not for Schiavo.

I was right about Friday at around 3:00. I was wrong about the patient. We removed the vent from my great-uncle a few weeks ago and were waiting for the old man's friend to come and take him. He aspirated on the feeding tube and died on Friday.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan
Uh, no. If she were brain dead the stem would be gone too and it wouldn't be as big of an issue.

Don't get technical with me. You and I could discuss this but it would go over the heads of Ty and them. What I meant was she can no longer express her wishes. And Burger- there was no disagreement as to Delay Sr. wishes amongst his family, was there?

[Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
And Burger- there was no disagreement as to Delay Sr. wishes amongst his family, was there?

Apparently not, but is that a relevant distinction if your concern is hearsay and strength of evidence? Is 5 people repeating the same hearsay more reliable than one? Maybe they're just agreeing to off the old coot?

[bilmore]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
In light of this, I think it's fucked up that you are criticizing Bilmore and such.

Naw, that's just what we do.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by bilmore
Before I answer this, let me know if you're going to have trouble with an arbitrary line qua arbitrary line.

To the contrary. I have no problem at with an arbitrary line. For instance, I draw mine at death.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by bilmore
Find me something that indicates that the complete uncertainty of this issue isn't driving the Schiavo saga.

Find me anything that even suggests that this would be controversial if she had filled out the form, or if family members hadn't so strongly disagreed on what she wanted, or if the initial factual determination had been the result of a fair and well-argued debate.

I'll wait here.

(ETA - Oh, like heck I will. It's past midnight.)

Do I have to google the quote about this being an attack on the Republican majority and on Tom Delay, or do you remember it?

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
Now you're just into unseemly, let's-demonize bullshit. Wonder what would have happened if there wasn't agreement among the survivors about their dad's condition? Do you think that might be a rather significant difference between the cases? Do you care, as long as you can post shit critical of Delay? You're starting to rank right around the anti-Hilary socks.

It is a bit unseemly to drag a family's gut-wrenching end of life decisions into the public arena, isn't it?

Even if they are already public, it is a bit unseemly to shove one's nose in and use them to score political points, isn't it? As Tom has sowed, so shall he reap.

I wonder why you think that the religious fundamentalists whom Delay and Bush (x2) are sucking up to on this issue would really care what the patient wanted. That isn't the point for most of them -- as a matter of doctrine it is irrelevant.

S_A_M

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Apparently not, but is that a relevant distinction if your concern is hearsay and strength of evidence? Is 5 people repeating the same hearsay more reliable than one? Maybe they're just agreeing to off the old coot?

That's the problem with letting the "pull the plug" decision to be made based upon anything other that a witnessed document. But apparently we do.

That's not really your question, though. You ask the hypo; "If Delay lied about his father's wishes and pulled the plug to 'off the old coot'- is his behavior in the present case hypocritical?"

Let me extend an olive branch of agreement with your hypo.

[Secret_Agent_Man]

Originally posted by bilmore
"Half of all pregnancies in the United States are unintended, and nearly half of those are terminated," Clinton said. "Making contraception more accessible and affordable is critical to reducing the number of unintended pregnancies."

Smartest way to appeal to both sides of that particular fight I've seen. Others have certainly tried, but she seems to be saying the right things in a better way.

That's a whole lot like what Bill used to say.

S_A_M

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
That's a whole lot like what Bill used to say.

S_A_M

Bill wasn't for contraception- he was more an advocate of the pull out technique.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Diane_Keaton
You think that even the easier standard of proof required (to show what Teri would have wanted) was not met. i.e., there is reasonable doubt whether Teri would have wanted her tube pulled. In light of this, I think it's fucked up that you are criticizing Bilmore and such.

What I was trying to say is that many of those who are siding with her parents are not acting in bad faith, and that there are things said in the media that might lead someone to reasonably question what her husband has done. In other words, I don't necessarily question the motives of everyone who reaches different conclusions about the case than I have.

DeLay, on the other hand, seems to have been suggesting to political supporters in recent days that she should be kept alive without regard to what she would have wanted, a view inconsistent with how he and his family dealt with his father's situation. I question DeLay's motives. He is a political opportunist.

If everyone approached these questions as bilmore does, the conversation would be a very different one. Where bilmore goes most wrong, IMHO, is in suggesting that Tom DeLay and others are thinking about the case like he is.