I'm Pleased
 

We have contributed equal amounts of substance. I just did so in fewer words.

Indeed. Sometimes less is more. See above.

I'm Pleased
 

It makes his "pro-choice", "I-tried-to-annul-my-18-year-marriage" all the more palatible to Vatican 3*


* The Vatican that all US Catholics - per Atticus - chooses to follow

I'm Pleased
 

You are mixing up socioeconomic status with religious affiliation. The reason these "Catholics" are having illegitimate kids is because they obviously don't know any better because they are being raised in poor households which tend to still follow the Church's criminal teachings on birth control and abortion (the Church should be sued for both teachings to the extent they impact our tax bills). Catholics of better socioeconomic status do not breed like farm animals. Its worth noting that a lot of us were raised differently than the "Irish need not apply" stereotype you cite. We're not all beer drunk shlubs who work in mills and worship saints. Most of us, in fact, long ago gave up on the Church and only define ourselves as Catholic in the same way most non-practicing reform Jews call themselves Jewish. We're only hanging on to the title for tradition's sake and because, unfortunately, in our world, religion remains an important identifying factor.

I know exactly what John Kerry is saying when he says he personally doesn't like abortion, but recognizes that is should, and must be kept legal (I'm actually a little more left than he is). He is trying to shore up the quiet Catholic moderate vote.

I grew up in an area which had a massive Catholic population (not Philadelphia) of all ethnic backgrounds. From my experience, Atticus is correct - only a tiny percentage of Catholics adhere to Rome's edicts. But the remaining 90 or so percent who ignore Rome privately do not admit doing so. Its true that these Pink Eleohants might be closeted, but that doesn't mean they're not there.

In the end, none of this matters anyway. Abortion is a non-issue. Its only important to the crazy Southern Baptists (if there are two worse forces in our country than the Southern Baptists and Catholic Church, I'd be interested to hear their names...). Nobody wins or loses a state based on abortion politics. Its all about taxes, jobs and Iraq.

I'm Pleased
 

Damn. Are these gonna be "occurrences" too?

I'm Pleased
 

Its actually impossible to be rigidly Catholic anymore. Do a few Google searches on the Church's positions and you'll find that one could not exist in modern society if he tried to follow the Church to the letter of its laws.

I know about 200 Catholics, and I'm all but certain 99.9% of them could not recite Church teaching on any given social issue other than the highly publicized stances on abortion and the death penalty. Catholicism is a fucking joke - its like being a Mason or a fraternity member.

I'm Pleased
 

Just curious, but what do your Catholic Italian-American relatives think about the Church's position on the death penalty? Should the Pope excommunicate Catholic governors who have signed a death warrant?

Slavery and Abortion
 

When did the fucking Church get the right to equate abortion with slavery? I was reading the Times this morning and in an OpEd, some priest from Notre Dame said abortion rights will be recalled historically in the same way we regard slavery as a bleak period. Bullshit. I hope somebody from the NAACP will stick their foot in that waterhead's ass.

This is exactly what turned me off to the Church as a small kid. These fucking moral harrumphers are so goddamned self-centered that they think their pet issues are on par with some of the biggest crimes in history. Its bad enough these fucking loons have the balls to equate abortion with the Holocaust (and I still don't know why the Jews aren't complaining about that), but now they're co-opting slavery? Does the Church have no shame at all?

I'm Pleased
 

You've been talking a lot of shit for the last few weeks -- some of it on things you know about, and some obviously not. I'll call you on this one. Kerry said precisely those words (essentially a quote) during both of the Presidential debates. I also think they are more or less in one of his stump speeches.

You're just not listening.

Now, that's just plain stupid. His "base at the wedding" f-cking hates George Bush, and saw in 2000 what protest votes based on principle do in a close election. They'll turn out.

Actually, we have heard all of those things from him -- but you're not listening. Or, like Bilmore, you assume he's a liar.

I find it fascinating that you all on the Right not only find it so easy to believe that Kerry is lying or pandering to get elected, but also _assume_ the direction in which he is doing so. (i.e. That he will become some sort of pacifist or weakling after the election, rather than doing what is necessary to defend out country even if some of "his base" doesn't like it.)

It is remarkable to me that you find it so easy to believe this of a man who: volunteered for the military, saw combat, was decorated for courage under fire, served as a prosecutor, immersed himself in public service and (before that) engaged in public discourse and activism on the most important issues of that time. Kerry has proven beyond a doubt, over the course of his life, that he thinks seriously and cares deeply about the critical issues of the day. No one could have said that about Bush before he became President.

Of course you need to look at a man's record, but it is also a mistake NOT to think that the Presidency is a unique office and the demands and responsibilities of the job can change their occupants to produce results one would not expect from their records. The job of a President (i.e. represent and protect the nation) is different than the job of any Senator or representative and requires one to view problems differently and take broader positions.

In other words, whatever Kerry has done as 1 of 100 Senators from 1984-2004 (and we disagree on that record) is not an indication that he will not take appropriate action as President in a world tranformed by the 9/11 attacks and the ensuing wars.

Consider, for example, that Harry Truman was a relatively undistinguished Senator with little record before Roosevelt picked him as VP.

If you think that Bush has done well, then your man is also a prime example. Ignore everything pre-1980, and you still have this record: started three businesses with money borrowed from family connections and ran them into the ground; leveraged the cash from the last into an ownership stake in the Texas Rangers (his partners always wanted the Bush name); became personally wealthy based on insider dealings, despite conflicts of interest, with the stadium land deal; served six years in, essentially, a part-time job as Governor of Texas where he laughed about the executions he oversaw. What in the world would make anyone think that this "record" is suitable to be President of the U.S. during and after 9/11?

S_A_M
etft and efs and to add "NOT"

I'm Pleased
 

No problem, nigger.

S_A_M

[eta: That statement was meant, of course, in the non-derogatory vernacular in which a man speaks to one of his dawgs.]

I'm Pleased
 

when your firm looks to hire a lateral partner, does it ask to see law school transcripts?

I'm Pleased
 

You and I value his book of business rather differently. I also see the potential for enormous liabilities that could bring down the firm. Read your ALAS bulletins.

S_A_M

eta: But of course, I was making a more general point.

I'm Pleased
 

What is this, national trash-on-Catholics day?

I know non-Catholics like to oversimplify the religion, usually for the sake of disparaging it. I also know this is popular with any number of other religions (cf. Not Me posting on Islam). There are even Catholics who want to oversimplify for purposes of denying the tensions within the faith.

But it is possible to have a deeply felt religion that, yes, has strong tenets of faith, and still to struggle with elements of it. Faith need not be a simple matter of staring at your belly button and believing what you are told, and Catholicism is certainly very far from that.

So, for the law-and-order Catholics who have no problem with an absolutist right-to-life position, it is common to see them struggle with the fact that the Church is adamantly opposed to the death penalty. For me, the struggle is usually with the role of women in the Church - I find little rational basis for not permitting women in the priesthood, and this obviously puts me at odds with the Church's official position. But I have faith that the Church will also grow, and the time will come. And the Church is very diverse, and that does mean that it may move slowly at times because it needs to bring a lot of people along.

But I tell you what, let's not minimize the extent to which anyone feels their religion, or minimize the value or meaning of their religion, for the purposes of political debate. I won't call such behavior unAmerican, since it is more fundamentally wrong than that.

I'm Pleased
 

It's statements like these that make me realize that the Republican party in other states hasn't been taken over by the religious right, and it gives me hope that perhaps some Republican Texan with balls can set the party back here on track.

I'm Pleased
 

We certainly look for strong indications of grey matter. Of course, by 15 years out of law school, there are better tests that law school transcripts, but it would be pretty extraordinary to see us lateral in a partner with a degree from Western Kentucky U. Law School (sorry, Hank).

Slavery and Abortion
 

The blogsphere is pretty much convinced that Bush's baffling "Dred Scott" answer in the debate on Friday was a reference to "abortion=slavery" and a reassurance to those in the know on such matters that he will appoint justices that will overturn Roe. Google "dred scott" and abortion.

I'm Pleased
 

Umm Florida Coastal, sorry.

http://www.fcsl.edu/

I'm Pleased
 

I am Catholic, and I'm quite familiar with the Church's positions on everything. You'd do just as well to try to follow the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard.

The only church edict worth a shit is from St. Francis of Assisi -"Do onto others as you'd have them do unto you." I live that one because its practical, sensible and I believe encapsulates how people should live. As to the judgmental rubbish offered by Rome and the eidtcs handed down by the Church - those are men's rules, and you might as well wipe your ass with them as read them. You think I'm going to have "faith" in a disastrous bureaucratic mess like the Church. I'm pretty certain if Chriost were to come back, the first temples he'd demand be cleansed would be the Southern Baptists and the Catholic Church. I'll deride Catholicism all I like because its a flawed, self-perpetuating corporate monster. As to its brother in judgment dispensing industry, the SBC, well, thats a good example of what happens when uneducated white trash gets together in mass numbers. They have a right to speak all they like, but I've no obligation to respect the views of imbeciles. And yes, if you believe, like the SBC, that women should be home and subservient, and that evolution is a teaching propagated by "satan", you're an imbecile.

As to the GOP being taken over by religious nuts, there will be a reckoning soon. I believe - I have to believe - that the Rockefeller Republicans will stand up and take back what's theirs. You can't have a party where the mass quietly accepts the tyranny of idiots indefinitely.

I'm Pleased
 

Really!? Interested in lateralling?

Sad day in the blogsphere
 

The Burnt Orange Report, which is the Blog of some Democrats from the University of Texas, has had to change its name and color scheme for a few days. They lost a bet on the UT/OU game to http://soonerpolitics.com/ and are now called "The Crimson and Cream Report."

This just hasn't been the weekend for Texas sports.

Slavery and Abortion
 

If they overturn Roe v. Wade, you will see this country torn socially from stem to stern. I don't think anyone will really do that. He's paying the idiots lip service.

I'm Pleased
 

Florida coastal photos are huge

I'm Pleased
 

I'm guessing few guys, if any, actively contemplate their faith in the middle of sex. However, as long as there is "nun porn" available, there's still hope.

I'm Pleased
 

why the " " ? Are you implying its not actual nuns?

Current reading:
 

This is a great, if somewhat scary book. For extra credit, think about how the techniques the Army uses to turn people into killing machines are like the techniques law schools use to turn people into lawyers.

Slavery and Abortion
 

If they truly believe that an abortion is the murder of a kid, how can they NOT equate the two (or was it three)?

Slavery and Abortion
 

You talk a good game sometimes, but you are totally full of shit. They overturn Roe v. Wade, abortion gets outlawed (mostly) in 20 states. It'll be more heavily regulated in maybe 10 more. And none of those states will be California, Illinois or New York.

I love that Do Unto Others thing too. Someday 800 million babies are coming at you with a hack saw.

On another note, I like how you guess that I'm from the poor Catholic areas. Its actually middle-to-upper class Catholic, though lots of the people are descended from poor Catholics 50 or 60 years ago. I agree that people tend to be less rigid in their "faith" as they get wealthier, but that could be because people don't put too much time into thinking a lot of things through as they become professional slaves. I don't think you were active on this board the last 4 times the abortion debate came up, but nothing got solved as to whether its right, wrong, questionable or whatever. If nothing else, one or two posters here and elsewhere have convinced me that they have a sincere basis for their position (contrary to mine).

You might think your heart beats in synch with the rest of America, but if it did, you wouldn't always be so frustrated.

I'm Pleased
 

Yeah. It happened in Illinois. Then Ryan got indicted. After Obama takes the next seat, there won't be much of a Republican party left (though it will come back as the pain under Democrats continues to increase).

Hello

I'm Pleased
 

I'll be serious with you.
At best, if he said something like "We are at war, and its going to be a long war that will force us to confront many enemies in many countries for the foreseeable future", its contrary to numerous statements and positions of his over the last 3 years.

In any case, if you believe he will treat this like a war, and I'm being serious here, please let me know what the "Kerry doctrine" is. Can we go into other countries? Assassinations? Preemption? Invasions? If I don't hear him reiterate the Bush doctrine (Big War, Preemption), than I don't see how we are better off with him. Of course, if we do hear him reiterate it, it will be ironic that he's essentially adopting the "neocon" ideal. Which would be okay, right-idea wrong-people implementing it, except that he's derided it so often.


Believe me, I'm voting for Bush only as a comparative matter. I simply do not see Kerry a.) fighting this war to a successful conclusion and b.) doing anything right, er, Right, economically.

But all-in-all, like I think just about everyone else here feels, I think the whole idea of having to choose between these two mutts is a travesty.

Just to address this again, I basically agree with this. Fortunately, I think we turned out okay with Bush in terms of ideology when the right ideology was needed in one particular area (our security). While Kerry may think seriously and care deeply, he simply does not come out with the right answers. I don't know why that is. But I don't know why he didn't know he was Jewish until just before he was running for President in a party that historically received a grossly disproportionate amount of its funding from Jews.

If it helps anyone to avoid seeing red, I am sorta Jewish.

I'm Pleased
 

As Twain said, there are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics. What kind of asshole would even for a moment take seriously a mathematical progression as a likely scenario for terrorist casualties? Give me a fucking break.

And in any event, i never said we weren't at war. We are. Kerry and Edwards have acknowedged that as well. But that still doesn't get us to Bilmore's paranoid delusion that a Kerry presidency would "have us all living under Sharia." That was the statement you jumped in to defend. My question to you is this: are you, too, so batshit crazy as to believe that if Kerry is elected we'll all be speaking Arabic? Or are you just picking fights?

Sorry. See, Daley is one of many reasons I live in the suburbs.

Slavery and Abortion
 

1. Overtiurning Roe v. Wade will create a mess on a societal level. It will only be a matter of time until somebody in a state where its illegal seeks to pass a law holding its citizens liable for getting abortions in other states. The anti-abortion people will not stop until they get a constitutional amendment. What is legal in New York cannot be considered murder in Missouri. That just doesn't work.

2. I have seen what happenes to "Catholics" who were forced into bad marriages due to unwanted pregnancies, or who suffered guilt, shame, etc... because they got pregnant because they were afraid to get the pill for fear their parents would find out. I know people who've had abortions. Some of those women are my friends, and they might not have been had their lives been stunted early because of someone else's religious views being written into law. I'll take your 800 million babies any day, you self righteous son of a bitch. Where do I sign up?

3. I never said you came from a poor Catholic background. I said the stereotype you offered was from a poor Catholic background. If you must know, I assumed you were a rather well to do person stereotyping the average Catholic as poor. Goes to show you how far "assuming" goes, eh?

4. Religion is a substitute for money for a lot of people. Money gives you the time to think and the luxury of learning various disparate ideas. There's a reason the rank and file Catholic parishes and Baptists don't want people getting education. It fucks up their business.

5. Any frustration I've felt is due to a lack of money which requires me to work for a living, not because I'm out of sync with average America (I'm willing to bet my brnad of frustration is pretty common to 90% of people). But I'll take your comment as a compliment. I can think of nothing more insulting than for you to have stated that I was "the average American." I'd hope I'm at least a bit better than that. The last thing any human should aspire to is to have his heart beat in sync with the rest of the men round him. If you've no individual thought, what are you?

I'm Pleased
 

Maybe you're right. But we got a convenant with God Emself. So fuck what the kid thinks.

Living in the Curse of Interesting Times
 

I was afraid of that. I had really hoped I was wrong, but I was afraid I wasn't.

I'm Pleased
 

Well, I don't know? What kind of an asshole would assert that massive casualties is not_going_to_happen when they already have? Who in the fuck does not understand how much is at stake here, when both candidates agreed that MWD is the greatest threat to America? The whole point of an MWD is to cause mass casualties, and our choice is to elect someone who will minimize this possibility without surrendering our independence to France or directly to the Islamicists.

If we can't agree that mass-casualties are at stake, and that this became particularly clear after 9/11, there is really no point in continuing this with you.

If we can agree, please feel free to let me know what Kerry will do to minimize this possibility (i.e., please address the question I posed to SAM).

Hello

I'm Pleased
 

Hmm, lets see... how bout the drug industry, which offers piles of speciously derived stats to show why you need their therapies to avoid illnesses. How about medicine? Ever ask your doctor "Will 1 or 2 cigarettes actually do anything to me?" He'll never say 'probably not.' He'll cite some inapplicable study which shows that cigarettes - when smoked enmasse - cause cancer. Oh, here's another - breast cancer. Yesterday's Times had an ad saying one in seven women will get that during their lives. Of course, it offers no info regarding the variables in the study or the age at which the cancers are typically found. How about the government? We've had a war on weed for how many years, yet no one has ever died from a marijuana overdose, yet it remains a DEA schedule one drug? Statistics are the new bible. They prove everything.

Oh, according to the govt, I died of cirrhosis last week, have advanced throat cancer, have had about three heart attacks, am carrying about five STDs, have three children and have died in four car accidents. Just like about 3 out of 4 people you know.

I'm Pleased
 

I'm sorry, immediately above this response are you saying that you weren't assuming I'm from a poor Catholic background?

Slavery and Abortion
 

Which is exactly why you can't go wrong being a Republican in Chicago.

I'm Pleased
 

Yeh, I didn't see you saying YOU were born in a home where the family was breeding like rabbits because of church teaching. I thought you were talking objectively about people you'd seen who engaged in such behavior.

Slavery and Abortion
 

Make up your mind. A month ago, you were from the poorer old neighborhoods that were the primary locus of white flight, like the area around Taylor Street and the near West Side. Now you're claiming to be a middle-to-upper class Catolic (what, Winnetka or Gold Coast?)

You rewrite your personal history more than Gatsby.

I'm Pleased
 

I agree that there is a strong possibility that there will be one or more attacks in the US that will result in large numbers of casualties. I just think that if you believe you can plot it out mathematically and show a reliable progression, you're goofy.

As far as who I believe will do the best job of preventing such attacks.... I don't believe anybody can prevent such attacks. I think that either candidate can put in place and adminster an intelligence and security infrastructure that will frustrate and prevent many opportunities. But the enemy is far more committed to this than us, and individually, they are far more willing to die. Which means that ultimately, they will find a chance to attack and they will do so.

In terms of who will, ultimately, do a better job of progressing us toward a resolution, I believe that Kerry is a more intelligent, more humanist person than Bush. Consequently, he will apply methods of dealing with the Mideast other than brute force that we are ultimately not willing to pay for on an unlimited basis.

I'm Pleased
 

I've missed a few days here, so I may be out of the loop, but what's a MWD? Apologies if you're just dyslexic. I'm just wondering if I'm missing something since you did the same thing in two sentences.