Patting the wrists, rolling the eyes.

[sgtclub]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
How is it that Pearl Harbor justifies nuking Japanese cities, but slavery does not justify minority set-asides for highway repair?

Pa-Lease.

Originally posted by bilmore
"Don't see anything troubling . . . "? Well, no. I don't see the extent of moral failure on our part that you seem to see when we react to a country that starts and wages massive war on us, fer' sure. But, yeah, there are some troublesome aspects to incinerating that many people. I wish they could have stopped their own country from starting it, for one, and I wish the military nuts in J at the time hadn't decided to sacrifice millions of people in their bid for economic dominance. I'm sure you agree with these things - it's just that I seem to see (maybe unjustifiably) a thread of "it's our fault" in these kinds of posts from you, and I don't buy that.

I know. You see my lips moving but all you can hear is "i blame zee americains!"

Look, the point is this: if it is morally reprehensible to take an innocent life, then it is morally reprehensible to use nuclear weapons to wipe out entire cities. But people (and nations) are often faced with a choice between a morally reprehensible act and extinction. Sometimes people choose extinction, more often they choose the morally reprehensible act. I'm glad we, as a nation (hi, Hank!) didn't choose extinction. But let's not pretend that incinerating innocent people isn't morally reprehensible -- no matter who does it or for what reason.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Pa-Lease.

What are you doing here? I thought you were leading troops in the Congo.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by bilmore
Do you truly not understand that what you just typed is correct?

There is a reason why most civilized people frown on the slaughter of civilians during wartime. Think back to 9/11, and think about whether you see anything particularly heinous about the attack on the World Trade Center as opposed to, say, a U.S. military installation.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by sgtclub
Pa-Lease.

If you're going to pretend to believe in individual rights, then you've got to pretend to believe in them all the time.

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by ironweed
I know. You see my lips moving but all you can hear is "i blame zee americains!"

Look, the point is this: if it is morally reprehensible to take an innocent life, then it is morally reprehensible to use nuclear weapons to wipe out entire cities. But people (and nations) are often faced with a choice between a morally reprehensible act and extinction. Sometimes people choose extinction, more often they choose the morally reprehensible act. I'm glad we, as a nation (hi, Hank!) didn't choose extinction. But let's not pretend that incinerating innocent people isn't morally reprehensible -- no matter who does it or for what reason.

Commie bastard. Go back to Mockba, comrade!

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Bob
Not after Bataan.

Look, I'm not saying that we were bad and the Japanese were good. It went both ways. Americans believed, not without reason, that the Japanese wouldn't take prisoners. The Japanese likewise. It went both ways. Consider, e.g., the account in the second half of this post.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by ironweed
I know. You see my lips moving but all you can hear is "i blame zee americains!"

FWIW, I always picture you in a beret. But in an Irish bar. So my confusion is at least partially explained . . .

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
If you're going to pretend to believe in individual rights, then you've got to pretend to believe in them all the time.

this whole ivory tower crap outlook shows why you guys can't be given the keys anymore-

we blew them up to try and make Americans safer- in your perfect hindsight world was there a better way? You and your boys can study that shit in your classes up at Ivy. I frankly could give a crap.

Or are you saying Pearl Harbor was just a petty crime?

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by bilmore
FWIW, I always picture you in a beret. But in an Irish bar. So my confusion is at least partially explained . . .

No, he just makes his guests wear the beret. And sing "Boys of the Old Brigade."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
we blew them up to try and make Americans safer- in your perfect hindsight world was there a better way?

Then what? Firebombing Tokyo? Nuking Nagasaki? Or bilmore's hypothetical killing of Japanese civilians because they asked for it at Pearl Harbor?

Yes, no, and yes, I'm inclined to think.

Originally posted by bilmore
FWIW, I always picture you in a beret. But in an Irish bar. So my confusion is at least partially explained . . .

Why confused?

[Not Bob]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
Look, I'm not saying that we were bad and the Japanese were good. It went both ways. Americans believed, not without reason, that the Japanese wouldn't take prisoners. The Japanese likewise. It went both ways. Consider, e.g., the account in the second half of this post.

I hear you. Not to be tiresome, though, I would note that (a) Japanese soldiers were indoctrinated with the belief that surrender was a cowardly act, and they would have been reluctant to attempt to surrender even if they thought that it would have been accepted, and (b) we tended not to torture, starve, mistreat, etc. those Japanese prisoners who survived making it past the front lines.

I'm not excusing the shooting of those Japanese soldiers who did attempt to surrender. But simply saying "it went both ways" is absurd.

[bilmore]

Originally posted by ironweed
Why confused?

Because now you're showing me a picture of Sylvia, Rebel Leader of the Shining Path.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Not Bob
I'm not excusing the shooting of those Japanese soldiers who did attempt to surrender. But simply saying "it went both ways" is absurd.

It's not absurd at all. Read War Without Mercy, by John Dower. It takes two to tango. You can talk about differential treatment of prisoners, but the fact remains that very few prisoners were taken, because both sides were convinced, with good reason, that the other side wouldn't take prisoners. We didn't often get the chance, and we didn't. Naturally, you didn't read about the latter part much in Life or The Bestest Generation.