The babyjesuschristsuperstar on Board: filling the moral void of Clinton’s legacy

[Spanky]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Demonizing people for exercising their First Amendment rights does make McCarthy and Coulter enemies of America.

This may be one of the dumbest statement ever made on this board. So if I Demonize Nazi's for excersizing their first amendment rights, then I am unamerican?

They have right to express their opinions and I have a right to have mine. To demonize a communist or Nazi or anyone else who wants to destroy the US Constitution is not unAmerican, it is patriotic.

And there is no place in the constitution where is says that I have to hire someone who is a communist or have to buy products from a communist, let alone says I can't critisize openly somone who holds ideas different form mine.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Spanky
Was Fred Fisher a communist?

Was John Henry Faulk a communist?

I have no problem with communists lives being destroyed. If they want the violent overthrow of the U.S. government I have no problem with people boycotting them or refusing to hire them.

Then, presumably, you should have no trouble with anyone who advocates destroying the life of a social conservative, who would overthrow our democratic principles? You would agree that it would be okay to refuse to hire such people, or boycotting their businesses?

Taking this one step farther, would it be alright for Barbara Boxer to march Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, etc. in front of a congressional committee, digging up any dirt that could be found on them, prying into their private lives and exposing their personal weaknesses and foibles to public ridicule?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Then, presumably, you should have no trouble with anyone who advocates destroying the life of a social conservative, who would overthrow our democratic principles? You would agree that it would be okay to refuse to hire such people, or boycotting their businesses?

Taking this one step farther, would it be alright for Barbara Boxer to march Ann Coulter, Bill O'Reilly, etc. in front of a congressional committee, digging up any dirt that could be found on them, prying into their private lives and exposing their personal weaknesses and foibles to public ridicule?

If any of these people proposed the violent overthrow of the United State government then I would have no problem with congress investigating them. As long as none of them were jailed for their political beliefs. And if they refused to answer the questions I would have no problem with people not hiring them. However, if they received funds from a foreigh government to spy on the United States or to help organize a violent revolution I hope they would be executed.

In addition, if one of those people took an affirmative step towards instituting the violent overthrow of the US government then I hope they would be jailed.

I know that people boycott Dominoes Pizza and Blockbuster because the owenrs are social conservatives. I have no problem with that. Do you?

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Spanky
Correct me if I am wrong here, but if they had just said that they had been members of these organizations but now see the errors in their ways, and disavow the communist party it would have been no problem.

You are wrong here. The HUAC and MCCarthy had no right to compel these people to disavow anything or acknowledge "the error of their ways." You sound like Chairman Mao in the days of the Cultural Revolution. You are overlokking the fact that these people had a right to think or feel whatever they chose.

And remember, these were people that were part of an organization that was receiving money from a foreign power and was promoting the violent overthrow the U.S. Government and insituting a dictatorship.

This is bullshit. Most of the people who were brought before the committee had never advocated the violent overthrow of the government.

BY this standard, W's father, and the rest of the Carlyle group should be destroyed and subject to public disgrace and opprobrium. One of the Carlyle Group's largest clients is the Saud family and their various corporate investment vehicles. They are a foreign power practicing Wahabbism, a form of Islam that, according to some (including many on this board) advocates the violent overthrow of the United States government.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Spanky
This may be one of the dumbest statement ever made on this board. So if I Demonize Nazi's for excersizing their first amendment rights, then I am unamerican?

They have right to express their opinions and I have a right to have mine. To demonize a communist or Nazi or anyone else who wants to destroy the US Constitution is not unAmerican, it is patriotic.

And there is no place in the constitution where is says that I have to hire someone who is a communist or have to buy products from a communist, let alone says I can't critisize openly somone who holds ideas different form mine.

Suggesting that anyone who believes in Communist ideas is committing treason is attempting to destroy the Constitution. There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and suggesting that they are enemies of the state, solely on the basis of their political beliefs, no matter how unpopular.

So, I guess yeah, you are Unamerican.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by taxwonk
You are wrong here. The HUAC and MCCarthy had no right to compel these people to disavow anything or acknowledge "the error of their ways." You sound like Chairman Mao in the days of the Cultural Revolution. You are overlokking the fact that these people had a right to think or feel whatever they chose.

They didn't have to say anything. And if they did not they were not throw in jail, they were merely ostracized. They could take the 5th, but then citizens in this country could exercise their rights by no associating with them. Everyone was excercising their rights.

There is nothing wrong with a committee looking into an organization run by a foreign power that promotes the violent overthrow of the United States. That was the communist party. You can be a member of the communist party, but if people find out don't expect them to treat you like a brother. The government may not be able to arrest you but that does not mean everyone else needs to be nice to you.

Originally posted by taxwonk
This is bullshit. Most of the people who were brought before the committee had never advocated the violent overthrow of the government.

The communists party's goal was a violent overthrow of the US government. Socialists - no. But socialists were not being brought before the committee. Communists were. The communists party was run by Moscow and it direct intention was to overthrow the US government by violent means.

Originally posted by taxwonk BY this standard, W's father, and the rest of the Carlyle group should be destroyed and subject to public disgrace and opprobrium. One of the Carlyle Group's largest clients is the Saud family and their various corporate investment vehicles. They are a foreign power practicing Wahabbism, a form of Islam that, according to some (including many on this board) advocates the violent overthrow of the United States government.

Maybe you think they should be but they are not. U.S. citizens can abhore and ostracize whomever they want. You are free to say anything you want, and if I don't like your beliefs, especially if you want to overthrow the US government by violent means, then I can choose to ostracize you. I choose to abhore Nazis, Communists and former members of the KKK. Anybody who subscribes to any of these heinous ideologies I am not going to do anything to assist them in any way.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Suggesting that anyone who believes in Communist ideas is committing treason is attempting to destroy the Constitution.

Boy you are slow. I did not say they were committing treason by being a member of the communist party. However, if they did take funds from the Soviet Union to spy on the United States, which almost the entire leadership of the communist party did, or if I take any affirmative steps to overthrow the government, then yes that is treason.

You can be a part of a group that wants to overthrow the government, just like you can talk about murdering someone. Nothing illegal. But the minute you go out and attempt to murder someone, or attempt the violent overthrow of the US government, then that is a crime.

Originally posted by taxwonk There's a difference between disagreeing with someone and suggesting that they are enemies of the state, solely on the basis of their political beliefs, no matter how unpopular.

So, I guess yeah, you are Unamerican.

Someone who wants to overthrow the US government, or end our democracy is an enemy of the state. You make it sound like being a communist is like being a member of the Green party or a socialist party. The goal of communism is to end democracy. There is a huge difference.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by taxwonk
Suggesting that anyone who believes in Communist ideas is committing treason is attempting to destroy the Constitution.

Another one of the more stupid statements. That other one was a doozy - "Demonizing people for exercising their First Amendment rights does make McCarthy and Coulter enemies of America." (and I don't see you trying to defend it) but this one is up there. Communists by definition want to tear up teh consitution. Ever hear of the dictatorship of the proletariate?

If you are communist you are against the constitution. You do get that correct?

[Spanky]

Would anyone on this board care if the US Congresss did an investigation into Neo-Nazis and other racist parties in the United States?

What about an investigation as to whether members of Neo-Nazi groups were working in the United States government?

What if they held hearings and interviewed the leaders about their activities?

If a lawyer defending ones of these Neo - Nazis was shown to be member of a Neo-Nazi party would people consider digging up such information as "smear tactics"?

And what if it turned out that some Hollywood writers, directors and producers may have been members of or were currently members of Neo-Nazi parties?

Would anyone have a problem with Congress investigating that?

If there was a suspicion considering whether a Hollywood writer producer or director was either a current or former member of a neo-nazi party and they refused to answer whether they were a current or former member of a Neo Nazi organization would anyone care if the studios decided not to hire them?

Would it be out of line for a studio to ask before they hire someone that they state that they are not, nor have ever been a member of a Neo Nazi group, and if they had been to disavow that membership?

Really. Who would have a problem with that?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Spanky
If you are going to fight a war, then fight to win. We need to send more troops.

I agree with this, and I think some Democrats have proposed increasing the size of the armed forces. If this is your beef, your problem is with Bush, who stubbornly pretends that his commanders don't want or need more troops*, and Rumsfeld, who is more interested in transforming the military than he is in winning the war it's actually fighting right now.

* Or maybe Bush truly believes this, which would be even scarier.

Once we have made a decision to go in we have to take responsibility for it. We need to spend more money fixing the countrys infrastructure.

I don't object to spending money per se, and I would even support a tax increase to pay for it. But we've wasted a lot of money there. Wasting more won't help.

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Spanky
If you are communist you are against the constitution. You do get that correct?

No one said Fred Fisher was a communist. I think Not Bob said he was a member of a group that also received support (under the table, I assume) from the USSR.

If I'm a member of the Book of the Month Club, and the PRC sends it money without my knowledge, that does not make me a Chinese spy.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I agree with this, and I think some Democrats have proposed increasing the size of the armed forces. If this is your beef, your problem is with Bush, who stubbornly pretends that his commanders don't want or need more troops*, and Rumsfeld, who is more interested in transforming the military than he is in winning the war it's actually fighting right now.

* Or maybe Bush truly believes this, which would be even scarier.

You asked me for criticisms I could respect. Just because I respect it does not mean I agree with it.

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
I don't object to spending money per se, and I would even support a tax increase to pay for it. But we've wasted a lot of money there. Wasting more won't help.

Again, it is a criticism I respect. Whining about "Bush lying" I don't respect.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Tyrone Slothrop
No one said Fred Fisher was a communist. I think Not Bob said he was a member of a group that also received support (under the table, I assume) from the USSR.

If I'm a member of the Book of the Month Club, and the PRC sends it money without my knowledge, that does not make me a Chinese spy.

McCarthy simply pointed out an organization that Mr. Fisher was a member of. This organization was pretty much the communist partys legal arm. What is wrong with that? The main goal of the book of the month club is not to promote communism, nor is its main objective to protect communists. Anyone that was a member of the Lawyers Guild knew what the organization was about. To compare it to the book of the month club is ridiculous.

Pointing out that someone was a member of an organization is not a character assassination. It is just pointing out facts.

BTW: I was the one who pointed out that it was on the payroll of the communists.

[Spanky]

I was under the impression that people were wrongly accussed of being communists during the McCarthy era. As a student I was told that it was similar to the Salem Witch trials because people were wrongfullly accused and lives were ruined. The people in Salem were not witches and the people accused by McCarthy were not communists.

It is now my understanding that no one was wrongfully accused. It was simply exposed as to who were members of the communist party.

If someone was falsly accused of being a communist or former communist and was ostracized then that would be wrong. But it is now my understanding that did not happen.

If someone had been a member of the communist party but stated that they had made a mistake but were still ostracized that would be wrong. It also my understanding this did not happen.

But if someone had been or currently was a member, and they refused to say that was a mistake, and they couldn't find work in Hollywood. That is a good thing. Or if someone refused to critisize the communist party and couldn't get a job in Hollywood, what is wrong with that?

Did McCarthy finger anyone that wasn't a communist?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

Originally posted by Spanky
You asked me for criticisms I could respect.

Actually, that's not what I asked you. Never mind, though.

Again, it is a criticism I respect. Whining about "Bush lying" I don't respect.

You and bilmore are about the only two people I know who say, "he lied, happens all the time, get over it." It would be refreshing to see Republicans actually say this, though.

Sooner or later, there will be a reckoning over what the Bush Administration did before the war. Trying to suppress the issue can only work so long.