The babyjesuschristsuperstar on Board: filling the moral void of Clinton’s legacy

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Spanky
Did you read the article you told me to read? It only referred to Iraqi newspapers. US citizens were not effected at all. There is a battle for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi citizens and this seems like a smart effort on that front.

But it seems to me that the LA Times just pointed out our troop positions to the enemy.

Again, what possible benefit could this LA Times article provide?

I seem to recall someone famous saying something about a free press being the cornerstone of democracy. I would imagine that another key element of that would be an honest press.

But then, as you are someone who has stated repeatedly that he finds nothing wrong with a President lying to the public, I wouldn't expect you to agree with this.

[Hank Chinaski]

Originally posted by Gattigap

In your mind, is there a dividing line for media to make a decision to report or not report on US propaganda? Is the US media to decline to report on this at alll?

Do you know who the competition is?

• Al-Jazeera TV Staff in Ramallah in Anti-Bush Demonstration: Down with Fascist America
  
  Following are excerpts from a demonstration of Al-Jazeera TV staff against U.S. President Bush. Footage of the demonstration was aired on Al-Jazeera TV on November 24, 2005.
  
  Crowd: Bush is a criminal against humanity.
  
  Demonstrator: Stop this aggression.
  
  Crowd: Stop this aggression.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush, give and take.
  
  Crowd: George Bush, give and take.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush, give and take.
  
  Crowd: George Bush, give and take.
  
  Demonstrator: You are an enemy of the (United) States.
  
  Crowd: You are an enemy of the (United) States.
  
  Demonstrator: You are an enemy of the civilizations.
  
  Crowd: You are an enemy of the civilizations.
  
  Demonstrator: You are a mafia leader.
  
  Crowd: You are a mafia leader.
  
  Demonstrator: Ten times ten equals one hundred.
  
  Crowd: Ten times ten equals one hundred.
  
  Demonstrator: Ten times ten equals one hundred.
  
  Crowd: Ten times ten equals one hundred.
  
  Demonstrator: Down with fascist America.
  
  Crowd: Down with fascist America.
  
  Demonstrator: And with the terrorist administration.
  
  Crowd: And with the terrorist administration.
  
  Demonstrator: And with the criminal ideas.
  
  Crowd: And with the criminal ideas.
  
  Demonstrator: And with the destructive policies.
  
  Crowd: And with the destructive policies.
  
  Demonstrator: With the Sharonist Bushism.
  
  Crowd: With the Sharonist Bushism.
  
  Demonstrator: This channel is for all people.
  
  Crowd: This channel is for all people.
  
  Demonstrator: This channel is for all people.
  
  Crowd: This channel is for all people.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush has no feelings.
  
  Crowd: George Bush has no feelings.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush has no feelings.
  
  Crowd: George Bush has no feelings.
  
  Demonstrator: This channel is for all people.
  
  Crowd: This channel is for all people.
  
  Demonstrator: He should collapse and be trampled on.
  
  Crowd: He should collapse and be trampled on.
  
  Demonstrator: Oh my comrade, oh my friend.
  
  Crowd: Oh my comrade, oh my friend.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush is not normal.
  
  Crowd: George Bush is not normal.
  
  Demonstrator: Oh my comrade, oh my friend.
  
  Crowd: Oh my comrade, oh my friend.
  
  Demonstrator: George Bush is not normal.
  
  Crowd: George Bush is not normal.
  
  Demonstrator: He is the real criminal.
  
  Crowd: He is the real criminal.
  
  Demonstrator: Al-Jazeera, with cleverness.
  
  Crowd: Al-Jazeera, with cleverness.
  
  Demonstrator: With its experience and expertise.
  
  Crowd: With its experience and expertise.
  
  Demonstrator: Has exposed Bush and (his) despicability.
  
  Crowd: Has exposed Bush and (his) despicability.
  
  Demonstrator: Let's repeat this one. Al-Jazeera, with cleverness.
  
  Crowd: Al-Jazeera, with cleverness.
  
  Demonstrator: With its experience and expertise.
  
  Crowd: With its experience and expertise.
  
  Demonstrator: Has exposed Bush and (his) despicability.
  
  Crowd: Has exposed Bush and (his) despicability.

http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=942

clip- http://littlegreenfootballs.com/webl...EMRI-92246.jpg

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Gattigap
No, I expected you to pay attention to the fact that I didn't post it. Shifter did.

Oops. My bad.

Originally posted by Gattigap
In your mind, is there a dividing line for media to make a decision to report or not report on US propaganda? Is the US media to decline to report on this at alll?

I expect the media to show a modicum of self restraint and responsibility. I expect them to think seriously about every article they post about the war. If an article damages the war effort and does not produce any positive effect, why print it? Just like the media shouldn't report troop positions are military strategy, it shouldn't screw up a US covert propaganda operation.

Originally posted by Gattigap
No. Actually, Spanky, that's why it's called an "analogy."

Whatever. Why don't you just admit there is a huge difference between the US government trying to manipulate the US media to its trying to manipulate the domestic media in a country where we are fighting an insurgency.

[Gattigap]

Originally posted by Spanky

I expect the media to show a modicum of self restraint and responsibility. I expect them to think seriously about every article they post about the war. If an article damages the war effort and does not produce any positive effect, why print it? Just like the media shouldn't report troop positions are military strategy, it shouldn't screw up a US covert propaganda operation.

I agree with this thematically, but suspect that the difference between our views is one of degree.

I don't pretend to know the extent to which that paper considered restraining themselves. You're bothered by it, I suppose, because you are inclined to believe it was working/would work, and that there's no upside to our learning about it. And that therefore the LAT probably exercised no restraint at all.

I believe that there's at least some upside to Americans learning about it, am more skeptical about whether it was working/would work, and therefore am bothered somewhat less, and am willing to tolerate the downside as a cost of living in a free society.

Presumably, you didn't like the whole Pentagon Papers thing either.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by taxwonk
I seem to recall someone famous saying something about a free press being the cornerstone of democracy. I would imagine that another key element of that would be an honest press.

But then, as you are someone who has stated repeatedly that he finds nothing wrong with a President lying to the public, I wouldn't expect you to agree with this.

You can't be serious here. Do you think the press should be completely free in a wartime situation. What if the US was secretly inserting articles into Pravda during the Cold War. Should the press have exposed that?

Does freedom of the press mean that the press should print all information they got no matter what the content?

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Spanky
Oops. My bad.

I expect the media to show a modicum of self restraint and responsibility. I expect them to think seriously about every article they post about the war. If an article damages the war effort and does not produce any positive effect, why print it? Just like the media shouldn't report troop positions are military strategy, it shouldn't screw up a US covert propaganda operation.

Whatever. Why don't you just admit there is a huge difference between the US government trying to manipulate the US media to its trying to manipulate the domestic media in a country where we are fighting an insurgency.

It bothers me that they can't even lie competently.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
It bothers me that they can't even lie competently.

Its a sales issue. Its a tad harder to sell the product in a territory where people can actually spot bullshitters. You get lazy when you're pitching snake oil to white trash whose idea of exotic literature is Leviticus. You start thinking you can throw the same change ups you fire at the base to the rest of the country.

Karl's overrated. He's not a genius, he's just a new low in cynicism. His trick was simple math - "There's enough dumb trash in this country to get us over the top. Lets focus on them. Tell them some crap about family values. With their votes added to the mass of moderates who'll vote for us for lower taxes, we'll create an unbeatable coalition."

Solid game plan, but how do we shut up the trash once we have their votes?

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Gattigap

I believe that there's at least some upside to Americans learning about it,

What upside? Is this something nefarious that needs to be exposed? If unexposed what harm could it cause?

Originally posted by Gattigap
am more skeptical about whether it was working/would work,

Would you admit that it is possible that it might have done some good.

Originally posted by Gattigap
and therefore am bothered somewhat less, and am willing to tolerate the downside as a cost of living in a free society.

I can't see any upside to the exposure and no downside to the operation. I think it shows that LA times is more concerned about a) selling newspapers or b) making the Bush administration look bad over our being successful in Iraq and limiting the exposure of our troops to harm.

They should be universally condemned for what they did. I think the problem is that people have become so cynical they don't expect the press to show any responsibility.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Spanky
Are you entitled to know the names of every undercover operative for the FBI and to know exactly what they are doing?

Generally not, but if Cheney's office insists on leaking them to me, what am I supposed to do? Cover my ears and hum?

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Spanky
You can't be serious here. Do you think the press should be completely free in a wartime situation. What if the US was secretly inserting articles into Pravda during the Cold War. Should the press have exposed that?

Yes.

Does freedom of the press mean that the press should print all information they got no matter what the content?

No. The press should not be allowed to pry into the private lives of citizens and invade their privacy. As for the government, yes, I believe the press should be allowed to print pretty much everything. The only exceptions that I would allow for would be a restraint on information which would put the lives of people in jeopardy, for instance, an article on how the DoD has found a way to make anthrax from microwaving Kraft American Singles. Or the names of covert CIA operatives.

Unless those covert CIA operatives are in Saigon assassinating political candidates opposing the Thieu regime.

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
It bothers me that they can't even lie competently.

Which is one very good reason to print the story. If an Administration can't even run a basic propaganda operation without getting busted, then it's time for a change.

[Gattigap]

From those freedom-loving fuckers at NewsMax

• John McCain: Torture Worked on Me
  
  Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.
  
  Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!
  
  In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.
  
  "Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.
  
  
  "I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."
  The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."
  
  Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."

Now, to be fair, the editors at pro-torture NewsMax didn't say these exact words, so it's probably a stretch to conclude that NewsMax is calling McCain a hypocritical pussy who breaks easily.

[Shape Shifter]

Originally posted by Gattigap
From those freedom-loving fuckers at NewsMax

• John McCain: Torture Worked on Me
  
  Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.
  
  Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!
  
  In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.
  
  "Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.
  
  
  "I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."
  The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."
  
  Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."

Now, to be fair, the editors at pro-torture NewsMax didn't say these exact words, so it's probably a stretch to conclude that NewsMax is calling McCain a hypocritical pussy who breaks easily.

Why would they publish this? Isn't this just helping our enemies in Iraq and elsewhere?

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by Gattigap
From those freedom-loving fuckers at NewsMax

• John McCain: Torture Worked on Me
  
  Sen. John McCain is leading the charge against so-called "torture" techniques allegedly used by U.S. interrogators, insisting that practices like sleep deprivation and withholding medical attention are not only brutal - they simply don't work to persuade terrorist suspects to give accurate information.
  
  Nearly forty years ago, however - when McCain was held captive in a North Vietnamese prison camp - some of the same techniques were used on him. And - as McCain has publicly admitted at least twice - the torture worked!
  
  In his 1999 autobiography, "Faith of My Fathers," McCain describes how he was severely injured when his plane was shot down over Hanoi - and how his North Vietnamese interrogators used his injuries to extract information.
  
  "Demands for military information were accompanied by threats to terminate my medical treatment if I did not cooperate," he wrote.
  
  
  "I thought they were bluffing and refused to provide any information beyond my name, rank and serial number, and date of birth. They knocked me around a little to force my cooperation."
  The punishment finally worked, McCain said. "Eventually, I gave them my ship's name and squadron number, and confirmed that my target had been the power plant."
  
  Recalling how he gave up military information to his interrogators, McCain said: "I regret very much having done so. The information was of no real use to the Vietnamese, but the Code of Conduct for American Prisoners of War orders us to refrain from providing any information beyond our names, rank and serial number."

Now, to be fair, the editors at pro-torture NewsMax didn't say these exact words, so it's probably a stretch to conclude that NewsMax is calling McCain a hypocritical pussy who breaks easily.

Richard Mellon Scaife (contrib to NM) is on the list of people I'd watch drown, while balancing my beer on a life raft in his plain view.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by Shape Shifter
Why would they publish this? Isn't this just helping our enemies in Iraq and elsewhere?

Good question. I think this article is helping America's enemies and there should be a huge outcry over this article. I am sure that Tax Wonk things that this article is a good thing because the more information out there (McCain's giving into torture) the better.