LawTalkers  

Go Back   LawTalkers > General Discussion > Politics

» Site Navigation
 > FAQ
» Online Users: 752
0 members and 752 guests
No Members online
Most users ever online was 9,654, 05-18-2025 at 04:16 AM.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-19-2005, 04:17 PM   #2026
Spanky
For what it's worth
 
Spanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: With Thumper
Posts: 6,793
Punishing the Guilty

Quote:
Originally posted by Gattigap
It's also occurred to me that when the Administration deems those troublesome laws to be getting in the way of our security and all, what we really need is an obscure, mid-level, telegenic government official around which to rally. What's Ollie North doing these days?
Good point. And who cast Poindexter for this part? The guy just looked guilty. Bad casting job.
Spanky is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 04:52 PM   #2027
Shape Shifter
World Ruler
 
Shape Shifter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,057
Quote:
Originally posted by Gattigap
FWIW, this was quite good. The only thing that would make me laugh harder would've been a justification of domestic surveillance as a means of promoting Free Markets.

Spanky has argued that we should support particular policies because they are supported by Business. Spanky has also argued that we had to go to war in Iraq to prevent Saddam from becoming the next Hitler.

Hitler received strong support from Business. Eerily, Bush receives strong support from Business. Therefore, Bush must be stopped before he invades Poland and kills 6 million Jews.
__________________
"More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming out any other way."
Shape Shifter is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:01 PM   #2028
Secret_Agent_Man
Classified
 
Secret_Agent_Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: You Never Know . . .
Posts: 4,266
Punishing the Guilty

Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Times change and the months after 9/11 were not a time where people in charge were prone to ignoring identifying a terrorist threat. The thing that came out today is that there needed to be some tie to al Queda for the green light to be given to eavesdropping. Do you really think most people would be bothered that we eavesdropped on suspected al queda conversations?

The thing that I don't get is why getting a warrent would be time delaying. Is this special court not able to grant the warrents immediately?
The FISA court can move quickly, and _very_ rarely denies applications.

However, I think the theory was that this policy saves time by avoiding another layer of review AND avoiding any outside scrutiny of the justification for the warrant.

However, I understand that FISA has procedures for retroactive approval in exigent circumstances.

Therefore, this end run around FISA only makes sense to me if (a) the administration wanted to do a boatload of these wiretaps very, very quickly; and (b) did not necessarily have the sort of individualized evidence for each potential target which would have justified an application to the FISA court.

In my view, this is consistent with the idea of scrambling in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 -- and finding it a damn convenient procedure thereafter.

S_A_M
__________________
"Courage is the price that life extracts for granting peace."

Voted Second Most Helpful Poster on the Politics Board.
Secret_Agent_Man is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:01 PM   #2029
taxwonk
Wild Rumpus Facilitator
 
taxwonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In a teeny, tiny, little office
Posts: 14,167
Punishing the Guilty

Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
The thing that I don't get is why getting a warrent would be time delaying. Is this special court not able to grant the warrents immediately?
It's a very big delay when the G can't establish a lawful basis for getting the warrant. Hence the problem.
__________________
Send in the evil clowns.
taxwonk is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:03 PM   #2030
Secret_Agent_Man
Classified
 
Secret_Agent_Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: You Never Know . . .
Posts: 4,266
Punishing the Guilty

Quote:
Originally posted by Spanky
Good point. And who cast Poindexter for this part?
I don't recall.

S_A_M
__________________
"Courage is the price that life extracts for granting peace."

Voted Second Most Helpful Poster on the Politics Board.
Secret_Agent_Man is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:03 PM   #2031
taxwonk
Wild Rumpus Facilitator
 
taxwonk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: In a teeny, tiny, little office
Posts: 14,167
Punishing the Guilty

Quote:
Originally posted by Spanky
However, I was just trying to point out that if they really did some nasty things there is no precedent for punishment. Thanks to the precedent set by the exclusionary rule, they could have tapped every phone in the United States and nothing will happen to them.
Tex Colson, G. Gordon Liddy, and a few other boys from the Old Skool Daze might disagree with this.
__________________
Send in the evil clowns.
taxwonk is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:20 PM   #2032
Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Moderator
 
Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Pop goes the chupacabra
Posts: 18,532
Punishing the Guilty

Quote:
Originally posted by Spanky
I was kidding around, but in all seriousness there seems to be no precedent for punishing government officials who violate the search and seizure laws.
You're familiar with Bivens, no?

Problem is a terrorist will have a hard time showing damage.
__________________
[Dictated but not read]
Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:20 PM   #2033
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,146
Punishing the Guilty

Quote:
Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
The FISA court can move quickly, and _very_ rarely denies applications.

However, I think the theory was that this policy saves time by avoiding another layer of review AND avoiding any outside scrutiny of the justification for the warrant.

However, I understand that FISA has procedures for retroactive approval in exigent circumstances.

Therefore, this end run around FISA only makes sense to me if (a) the administration wanted to do a boatload of these wiretaps very, very quickly; and (b) did not necessarily have the sort of individualized evidence for each potential target which would have justified an application to the FISA court.

In my view, this is consistent with the idea of scrambling in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 -- and finding it a damn convenient procedure thereafter.

S_A_M
I read something that in a recent year there were around 1500 requests for a warrent, and no denials. Thus, at least as to when the admin seeks the warrent, it seems safe to say they do not over reach (or the Judicial review is a sham).

The court is 8 District judges selected by the Chief Justice- thus they probably are pretty law and order types. Given the 1500-0 I sort of doubt the reason to not seek a warrent has to do with lack of grounds.

It may well be stuff that is so sensitive it isn't worth risking the identity- and not to sound like Penske, but theAmerican people had a vote on who they wanted making this type decision.
__________________
I will not suffer a fool- but I do seem to read a lot of their posts
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:21 PM   #2034
Spanky
For what it's worth
 
Spanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: With Thumper
Posts: 6,793
The answer for the Herion use is not more Heroin.

Isn't the problem with Oil is that we are too dependent on it? Free markets generally produce the most efficient markets (except of course with natural monoplies and then government has to step in to make them efficient). However, efficient markets don't take into consideration strategic issues.

We buy oil from the Middle East because it is cheap. However, since the Middle East is an unstalbe region, and the cheap oil could get turned off, this use of Middle Eastern oil is making us vulnerable.

So the answer to the problem is not finding alternate sources of Oil but to turn to an energy source where we are not dependent on an unstable source. Finding alternate sources of oil for a while may reduce problems but does nothing to address the long term problem.

I agree with a lot of what George Will says in this piece, but I think he is missing the point that drilling the ANWAR is not going to help solve the strategic issue at hand. Eventually it will run out and then we will be back to depending on the places with all the reserves: The middle east and Hugo Chavez. So from my perspective whether or not we drill in ANWAR is not a big issue. The big issue is reducing our dependence on Oil (which is only necessary because the main source of Oil is from an unstable place).

George Will

Our Fake Drilling Debate: Collectively Hiding Behind ANWR

http://www.NewsAndOpinion.com | In 1986 Gale Norton was 32 and working for the secretary of the interior on matters pertaining to the proposal to open a small portion of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge — area 1002 — to drilling for oil and natural gas, a proposal that then had already been a bone of contention for several years. Today Norton is the secretary of the interior and is working on opening ANWR.


But this interminable argument actually could end soon with Congress authorizing drilling. That would be good for energy policy and excellent for the nation's governance.


Area 1002 is 1.5 million of the refuge's 19 million acres. In 1980 a Democratically controlled Congress, at the behest of President Jimmy Carter, set area 1002 aside for possible energy exploration. Since then, although there are active oil and gas wells in at least 36 U.S. wildlife refuges, stopping drilling in ANWR has become sacramental for environmentalists who speak about it the way Wordsworth wrote about the Lake Country.


Few opponents of energy development in what they call "pristine" ANWR have visited it. Those who have and who think it is "pristine" must have visited during the 56 days a year when it is without sunlight. They missed the roads, stores, houses, military installations, airstrip and school. They did not miss seeing the trees in area 1002. There are no trees.


Opponents worry that the caribou will be disconsolate about, and their reproduction disrupted by, this intrusion by man. The same was said 30 years ago by opponents of the Trans-Alaska Pipeline, which brings heated oil south from Prudhoe Bay. Since the oil began flowing, the caribou have increased from 5,000 to 31,000. Perhaps the pipeline's heat makes them amorous.


Ice roads and helicopter pads, which will melt each spring, will minimize man's footprint, which will be on a 2,000-acre plot about one-fifth the size of Dulles Airport. Nevertheless, opponents say the environmental cost is too high for what the ineffable John Kerry calls "a few drops of oil." Some drops. The estimated 10.4 billion barrels of recoverable oil — such estimates frequently underestimate actual yields — could supply all the oil needs of Kerry's Massachusetts for 75 years.


Flowing at 1 million barrels a day — equal to 20 percent of today's domestic oil production — ANWR oil would almost equal America's daily imports from Saudi Arabia. And it would equal the supply loss that Hurricane Katrina temporarily caused, and that caused so much histrionic distress among consumers. Lee Raymond, chairman and CEO of Exxon Mobil, says that if the major oil companies decided that 10 billion barrels were an amount too small to justify exploration and development projects, many current and future projects around the world would be abandoned.


But for many opponents of drilling in the refuge, the debate is only secondarily about energy and the environment. Rather, it is a disguised debate about elemental political matters.


For some people, environmentalism is collectivism in drag. Such people use environmental causes and rhetoric not to change the political climate for the purpose of environmental improvement. Rather, for them, changing the society's politics is the end, and environmental policies are mere means to that end.


The unending argument in political philosophy concerns constantly adjusting society's balance between freedom and equality. The primary goal of collectivism — of socialism in Europe and contemporary liberalism in America — is to enlarge governmental supervision of individuals' lives. This is done in the name of equality.


People are to be conscripted into one large cohort, everyone equal (although not equal in status or power to the governing class) in their status as wards of a self-aggrandizing government. Government says the constant enlargement of its supervising power is necessary for the equitable or efficient allocation of scarce resources.


Therefore, one of the collectivists' tactics is to produce scarcities, particularly of what makes modern society modern — the energy requisite for social dynamism and individual autonomy. Hence collectivists use environmentalism to advance a collectivizing energy policy. Focusing on one energy source at a time, they stress the environmental hazards of finding, developing, transporting, manufacturing or using oil, natural gas, coal or nuclear power.


A quarter of a century of this tactic applied to ANWR is about 24 years too many. If geologists were to decide that there were only three thimbles of oil beneath area 1002, there would still be something to be said for going down to get them, just to prove that this nation cannot be forever paralyzed by people wielding environmentalism as a cover for collectivism.
Spanky is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:24 PM   #2035
Spanky
For what it's worth
 
Spanky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: With Thumper
Posts: 6,793
Punishing the Guilty

Quote:
Originally posted by taxwonk
Tex Colson, G. Gordon Liddy, and a few other boys from the Old Skool Daze might disagree with this.
Where they prosecuted for installing illegal wire taps or violating peoples constitutional rights? I thought they were prosecuted for breaking and entering, assault etc. Anyone know the answer to this?
Spanky is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 05:38 PM   #2036
Shape Shifter
World Ruler
 
Shape Shifter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,057
The answer for the Herion use is not more Heroin.

Quote:
Originally posted by Spanky
The primary goal of collectivism — of socialism in Europe and contemporary liberalism in America — is to enlarge governmental supervision of individuals' lives. This is done in the name of equality.


People are to be conscripted into one large cohort, everyone equal (although not equal in status or power to the governing class) in their status as wards of a self-aggrandizing government. Government says the constant enlargement of its supervising power is necessary for the equitable or efficient allocation of scarce resources.
Couldn't it just do this by wiretapping?
__________________
"More than two decades later, it is hard to imagine the Revolutionary War coming out any other way."
Shape Shifter is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 06:04 PM   #2037
Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
Moderator
 
Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Pop goes the chupacabra
Posts: 18,532
Punishing the Guilty

Quote:
Originally posted by Secret_Agent_Man
The FISA court can move quickly, and _very_ rarely denies applications.
If by "very rarely" you mean "never". My understanding of the history is that the FISA court has denied 3 applications. Ever. In 30 years. All three of those were reversed on appeal to the FISA court of appeals.

But, at least there is a process established whereby a judge actually looks at the basis for the wiretap. As distrustful as I am of ex parte, closed-door proceedings, at least this one has some level of safeguard.
__________________
[Dictated but not read]
Mmmm, Burger (C.J.) is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 06:04 PM   #2038
ltl/fb
Registered User
 
ltl/fb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Flyover land
Posts: 19,042
C'mon baby tap my wire

Is now running through my head. To the obvious tune. That song is ripe for a parody. Alas, I suck at them.
ltl/fb is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 06:32 PM   #2039
Hank Chinaski
Proud Holder-Post 200,000
 
Hank Chinaski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Corner Office
Posts: 86,146
Punishing the Guilty

Quote:
Originally posted by Mmmm, Burger (C.J.)
If by "very rarely" you mean "never". My understanding of the history is that the FISA court has denied 3 applications. Ever. In 30 years. All three of those were reversed on appeal to the FISA court of appeals.
Am i on ignore?
__________________
I will not suffer a fool- but I do seem to read a lot of their posts
Hank Chinaski is offline  
Old 12-19-2005, 06:33 PM   #2040
Sexual Harassment Panda
Don't touch there
 
Sexual Harassment Panda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Master-Planned Reality-Based Community
Posts: 1,220
Punishing the Guilty

Quote:
Originally posted by Hank Chinaski
Am i on ignore?
Depends. Are you between resignations ?

Last edited by Sexual Harassment Panda; 12-20-2005 at 12:14 PM..
Sexual Harassment Panda is offline  
Closed Thread


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.0.1

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:48 AM.