The babyjesuschristsuperstar on Board: filling the moral void of Clinton’s legacy

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by Replaced_Texan

As a post subject heading, shouldn't this be "Gimme Back My Bullets" ?

I'm guessing he'll get his gatts back soon.

[Spanky]

Originally posted by baltassoc
Interesting interview with Loni Guinier in which she discusses her research into class and race, and how the two are often mistaken for each other, as well as the prediction value of measures of "merit" used for admission to colleges and laws schools.

One of her observations is that grades and test scores are not very good predictors of school performance or life performance (as measured by a definition of good alumni - my term, not hers), but class is. Blue collar admittees make better alumni.

Also, discusses briefly the Hopwood case, and points out that Hopwood was as much a victim of UT's admission policies discriminating against the poor (or at least those unable to attend elite universities, for whatever reason - which could be unrelated to wealth) as she was UT's preferential admission of other races.

http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archi...06guinier.html

I can't believe you posted this. This is such B.S. The inherent stupidity of her statements are beyond belief. Do you really think that this interview does anything but show what a moron Guinier is?

If the system schools are currenlty using is not letting in the most qualified students, then find another system to determine merit that does work. If you assume what she is saying is true, that the current system does not discern merit, that does not logically mean that affirmative action systems does determine merit.

The current system may not determine merit, but there is no question that an affirmative action system has absolutely no relationship to merit.

I think the current system works a lot better than she implies. How do I know this? I have seen statistics that show the failure rates of students accepted under affirmative action programs, and they are not good. The failure rate is much higher than normal students. At the school Less and I attended, a student accepted under affirmative action was five time more likely to fail.

Therefore if the best students are not being admitted under the current system (as Loni stated), then why is it then when the current system is suspended (for example with affirmative action) that the students that get in will do less well.

She is correct that race and class are two different issues. But any moron knows that and that is not any deep insight.

Her whole rationalization of why blue collar alumni (who by the way are a lot different than affirmative action alumni) are better alumni is also absurd.

She is also says that a Meritorcracy may not be egalitarian or democratic because a higher percentage of the students that get in to schools have parents from higher income brackets. I don't know why a egalitarian or democratic system has to accept students equally from all classes. In addition, it may be the families from higher income brackets place a higher premium on education and professional success and push their children harder.

The admissions system should be based on an as an objective merit system as possible. That is the fairest system. Any system that chooses students based on race is inherintly unjust no matter how Loni tries to rationalize it.

What has she said in this article that makes you think she has an IQ above six?

[notcasesensitive]

Originally posted by Spanky
What has she said in this article that makes you think she has an IQ above six?

I haven't read the article and I have no interest right now in the merits of the debate (I'm too busy with that thing called work to get sucked into anything), but if you are admitting that she has written an article, as opposed to, say, gibberish, I think you just established that she has an IQ higher than 6.

Carry on.

[sebastian_dangerfield]

Originally posted by baltassoc
Interesting interview with Loni Guinier in which she discusses her research into class and race, and how the two are often mistaken for each other, as well as the prediction value of measures of "merit" used for admission to colleges and laws schools.

One of her observations is that grades and test scores are not very good predictors of school performance or life performance (as measured by a definition of good alumni - my term, not hers), but class is. Blue collar admittees make better alumni.

Also, discusses briefly the Hopwood case, and points out that Hopwood was as much a victim of UT's admission policies discriminating against the poor (or at least those unable to attend elite universities, for whatever reason - which could be unrelated to wealth) as she was UT's preferential admission of other races.

http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archi...06guinier.html

The bigger question is what level of boredom caused you to read that article.

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by Spanky
I can't believe you posted this. This is such B.S. The inherent stupidity of her statements are beyond belief. Do you really think that this interview does anything but show what a moron Guinier is?

If the system schools are currenlty using is not letting in the most qualified students, then find another system to determine merit that does work. If you assume what she is saying is true, that the current system does not discern merit, that does not logically mean that affirmative action systems does determine merit.

The current system may not determine merit, but there is no question that an affirmative action system has absolutely no relationship to merit.

Did you actually read the interview? She doesn't disagree with you. Well, or disagrees with you only to the extent she might argue that AA is no less arbitrary an admission factor than the SAT.

I think the current system works a lot better than she implies. How do I know this? I have seen statistics that show the failure rates of students accepted under affirmative action programs, and they are not good. The failure rate is much higher than normal students. At the school Less and I attended, a student accepted under affirmative action was five time more likely to fail.

Therefore if the best students are not being admitted under the current system (as Loni stated), then why is it then when the current system is suspended (for example with affirmative action) that the students that get in will do less well.

Her research shows that this is not actually true, according to the interview. Other research may show differently. Where empirical data conflict, it's not exactly fair to call the other person a moron for stating conclusions based on the data she observed.

She is correct that race and class are two different issues. But any moron knows that and that is not any deep insight.

Her whole rationalization of why blue collar alumni (who by the way are a lot different than affirmative action alumni) are better alumni is also absurd.

Why is it absurd? They make more money, are more prominant in their communities and (most importantly) give more money to their alma maters. You have a better measurement of alumni?

She is also says that a Meritorcracy may not be egalitarian or democratic because a higher percentage of the students that get in to schools have parents from higher income brackets. I don't know why a egalitarian or democratic system has to accept students equally from all classes. In addition, it may be the families from higher income brackets place a higher premium on education and professional success and push their children harder.

I agree this is a factor. I also agree that it is not appropriate to assume that all classes should send people on the higher education equally. I'm not sure that Loni believes that either, as much as you've decided she believes that because it's an easy straw man.

The admissions system should be based on an as an objective merit system as possible. That is the fairest system. Any system that chooses students based on race is inherintly unjust no matter how Loni tries to rationalize it.

And where is she rationalizing it? Her point is that class is more important than race.

And at any rate, I'm not sure that I agree with you, for old school reparation reasons. When the last people whose education was impacted by segregation (either in the sense of being held back, or in the sense of being taught to discriminate) are past retirement age, I'll agree with you. Call me in about 2040.

What has she said in this article that makes you think she has an IQ above six?

The part where she discusses the impact of class on the reaction to desegregation. That much of the consternation wasn't at the integration of blacks, but the stratification by class of the whites in the city, and the impact (or perceived impact) that had on the educational opportunities for poor whites.

Also, the observation about the Hopwood plaintiff being penalized for going to a lesser school due to her economic background was interesting, is it not? I didn't read the interview to suggest this was a reason to keep quotas, but simply a criticism of the underlying assumption that the admissions process was otherwise fair to Ms. Hopwood.

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by sebastian_dangerfield
The bigger question is what level of boredom caused you to read that article.

I am really tired of this damn contract.

[Sidd Finch]

Originally posted by Spanky
I can't believe you posted this. This is such B.S. The inherent stupidity of her statements are beyond belief. Do you really think that this interview does anything but show what a moron Guinier is?

If the system schools are currenlty using is not letting in the most qualified students, then find another system to determine merit that does work. If you assume what she is saying is true, that the current system does not discern merit, that does not logically mean that affirmative action systems does determine merit.

The current system may not determine merit, but there is no question that an affirmative action system has absolutely no relationship to merit.

I think the current system works a lot better than she implies. How do I know this? I have seen statistics that show the failure rates of students accepted under affirmative action programs, and they are not good. The failure rate is much higher than normal students. At the school Less and I attended, a student accepted under affirmative action was five time more likely to fail.

Therefore if the best students are not being admitted under the current system (as Loni stated), then why is it then when the current system is suspended (for example with affirmative action) that the students that get in will do less well.

She is correct that race and class are two different issues. But any moron knows that and that is not any deep insight.

Her whole rationalization of why blue collar alumni (who by the way are a lot different than affirmative action alumni) are better alumni is also absurd.

She is also says that a Meritorcracy may not be egalitarian or democratic because a higher percentage of the students that get in to schools have parents from higher income brackets. I don't know why a egalitarian or democratic system has to accept students equally from all classes. In addition, it may be the families from higher income brackets place a higher premium on education and professional success and push their children harder.

The admissions system should be based on an as an objective merit system as possible. That is the fairest system. Any system that chooses students based on race is inherintly unjust no matter how Loni tries to rationalize it.

What has she said in this article that makes you think she has an IQ above six?

Your argument would be more convincing if you could cite a few 30-year old movies and TV shows.

I believe James at 16 had an episode on affirmative action, and I'm almost certain that Buffy did as well (but, is the performance of demons really a valid gauge of AA?)

[taxwonk]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
Your argument would be more convincing if you could cite a few 30-year old movies and TV shows.

I believe James at 16 had an episode on affirmative action, and I'm almost certain that Buffy did as well (but, is the performance of demons really a valid gauge of AA?)

I also remember a very special episode of Diff'rent Strokes where Willis was personally hurt by racism.

[Southern Patriot]

Originally posted by Sidd Finch
I believe James at 16 had an episode on affirmative action, and I'm almost certain that Buffy did as well (but, is the performance of demons really a valid gauge of AA?)

Son, those there Demons are what we call a metaphor. They represent the sexually charged, innately violent races who seek to defile the innocent and beguiling Christian womanhood represented by Buffy and her Friends. Affirmative Action is what gives power to the Demons and corrupts sweet Buffy and her friends.

We have been reduced to these metaphors by the censorship that goes on, keeping good, Christian shows out of the mainstream.

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Originally posted by Southern Patriot
We have been reduced to these metaphors by the censorship that goes on, keeping good, Christian shows out of the mainstream.

You mean like "Highway to Heaven" and "Touched by an Angel"?

Fine quality shows - great plots, inspired acting - I laughed, I cried.

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
You mean like "Highway to Heaven" and "Touched by an Angel"?

Fine quality shows - great plots, inspired acting - I laughed, I cried.

Not to mention "Doc", "Sue Thomas: FB Eye", "It's a Miracle" and all the other fine programming on PAXtv.

Yes, I had to look it up. This contract isn't getting any more interesting.

[Southern Patriot]

Originally posted by Sexual Harassment Panda
You mean like "Highway to Heaven" and "Touched by an Angel"?

Fine quality shows - great plots, inspired acting - I laughed, I cried.

Mealy mouthed, watered down tripe. The last good christian entertainment I saw was "Birth of a Nation".

But I do like the 700 Club.

[sgtclub]

From Drudge:

• Congresswoman McKinney Punches Police Officer... MORE... Rep. Cynthia McKinney (D-GA) punched a U.S. Capitol Police officer today after he mistakenly pursued her for failing to pass through a metal detector, HOTLINE reports... The entire incident is on tape. The cop is pressing charges and the USCP are waiting until Congress adjourns to arrest her, a source claims... Developing.

[Spanky]

This guy is running against my candidate (Brian Bilbray) for Duke Cunningham's vacated seat. Duke is the the guy who likes Yachts and fancy restaurants. I thought this was a pretty interesting way to drum up support from the Republicans in the district. I wish we had thought of it.

Friends,

On my campaign website I have included photographs we took as part of Move America Forward's trip to Iraq. A delegation of radio talk show hosts and myself led the "Voices of Soldiers" tour to Iraq where we interviewed our troops in the battlefield along with the people of Iraq - so they could tell the true story unfiltered by the liberal media.

Today those photographs have created an international media firestorm today and I wanted you to get a full explanation as to what has happened. The "Blame America First" crowd is desperate to malign me, right along with our brave troops who are serving in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

When we traveled to Iraq to support our troops we found that the REAL Iraq was a very different place from what you see reported by the mainstream news media. Most parts of Iraq are peaceful and calm. Violence is almost exclusively limited to 3 out of Iraq's 18 provinces.

The mainstream media was not happy with our trip and our message that our troops are winning the war and the country is becoming stabilized. The news networks either ignored us or criticized us.

But in the last 24 hours they have suddenly taken an interest in our trip to meet with the soldiers and inspect the progress being made in Iraq.

The reason for their sudden interest is that my campaign posted a picture from Istanbul, Turkey (where part of our delegation traveled through on the way home to the United States from Baghdad) and we mistakenly identified the photograph as coming from Iraq.

It was a mistake. I accept full responsibility for it.

Once I realized the situation, I had the photograph replaced with one of the many photos we took from Baghdad.

As a result of that one simple mislabeling of a photograph, news outlets and liberal political activists have barraged my home with phone calls asking about our "bogus propaganda" used to support the mission in Iraq.

These journalists and liberal political activists are attacking our campaign, my credibility, and the message we delivered (that progress is being made despite what the media reports) because they are determined to beat down the morale of the American people. The liberal journalists who dominate the ranks of the media want American troops to pull out of Iraq before the mission there is completed.

Well I say this: We aren't going to back down. And if you want to use this non-issue to advance your defeatist message that we must surrender in the war against terrorism, then I say this: bring it on.

I will apologize for mislabeling 1 photograph. I will NOT apologize for supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom. I will NOT apologize for supporting the mission the heroic men and women of our Armed Forces are serving in.

I am going to continue to carry this message forward, and we will prevail.

Now I ask you to help me turn this around on the media and liberal anti-war crowd. They want to use this episode to defeat our campaign for Congress.

I am asking you to make a contribution to my campaign to throw this back in their faces. Let us raise the money to get our message out over the constant noise of defeatism and criticism from the news media.

Make a contribution to our campaign here:

http://www.kaloogian.com/contribute

Or mail in a contribution to my finance headquarters:

Kaloogian for Congress
P.O. Box 1863
Sacramento, CA 95812

Now let's go show the media and anti-war activists that their attempt to attack our trip to Iraq to support our troops has backfired.

Thank you most sincerely for your continued support.

-- Howard Kaloogian
Conservative Republican for Congress http://www.KaloogianForCongress.com

[baltassoc]

Originally posted by Spanky
[...]

Today those photographs have created an international media firestorm today and I wanted you to get a full explanation as to what has happened. The "Blame America First" crowd is desperate to malign me, right along with our brave troops who are serving in Operation Iraqi Freedom.
[...]

It is indeed an interesting tactic. I think before it's an "international media firestorm" it has to appear in more than two publications I've ever heard of (based on a Google News search - I've heard of Newsweek and the Guardian, although I'm not sure why a single constituant should give a rat's ass what the UK's most left leaning major newspaper thinks (and actually, it's a pretty good paper so long as you read it back to back with the FT)).

But that's never stopped a Republican from complaining about the media before. It's such a standard tactic that you are (no offense) a complete idiot for not thinking of it.